Doctor Who, IMO

[meganlynn09]

Too lazy to put this under a cut, SEASON TWO SPOILERS. 

You know it's been bothering me for a while now that I could ship Nine/Rose and not Ten/Rose, I almost considered myself a hypocrite, which I'm not because it's perfectly reasonable to ship one and not the other.

I always thought it was only because Rose was too clingy and they acted like immature teenagers.  But it's more.

I didn't really like Rose in season two, and I really don't want to hear more of that "I loved her even more for her flaws in season two" because to me it's crap.  Just because I loved the character in season one, doesn't mean I'm gonna cut her slack in season two.  It's how I've always been with my characters.  She just wasn't as good anymore.  She never questioned Ten, she was jealous over the littlest of things and treated others (like Mickey) like they weren't a part of her "clique" with Ten.  

That bothered me on a more personal level because I had a friend that would do that.  If her boyfriend was around, her friends would be forgotten, if her boyfriend was ignoring me (which happened often as we never got along), she would too.  So, maybe that's why I didn't really appreciate Rose in season two.  More-so, it comes down to the fact of what RTD was saying, that the Doctor "Time Lorded" or whatever Rose.  That wasn't a good thing!  She wasn't confidant in season 2, she was foolishly smug to the point where danger didn't matter as long as she was with the Doctor.

That bothered me as well.  It's one thing to risk your life for someone, like the Doctor and Rose did for each other, but to not really care about what you could be stepping into, that's not cool.  One would think after traveling with the Doctor for a matter of time, you would be more wary of the danger, instead of less.  And yet, she seemed to be enjoying it more and more, and that's unsettling for myself.  Hmmm, this is the first time I really thought about that. 

My point, though, is that I can't really ship a couple when I don't like one of the two.  Especially if I don't really like either of them.  Same thing with BSG.  I've pretty much given up Kara/Lee (Starbuck/Apollo) because season two turned Kara into a character I didn't like anymore.

Overall, I can blame a lot of this on the writers.  But the handlers of the show know what's gonna be on air, so really, with the characters, I can't blame the writers at the same time.  'Cause are you really going to tell me that someone like RTD or whoever doesn't view the episodes before they air?  I pretty much know for a fact that he does.

Could this be why, at the end of "Doomsday", I was relieved?  Even though I did cry, not so much for Doctor/Rose, but because I really will miss Rose from once upon a time.

I hope who_daily picks this up, I'm up for a good discussion.

Comments

[prchung.livejournal.com]

Briefly, before I forget, "I loved her even more for her flaws in season two" because to me it's crap. I just had to say, "God, you're amazing!" And now on with the rest of your post...

[pheonix-iz-me.livejournal.com]

firstly, pretty much yes to all.

Secondly, I have yet to watch the new BSG but something you just said does make me wonder, does Shipping Starbuck/Apollo in the new series Canonise Starbuck/Apollo slash from the original series?

Post Regeneration Trauma?

[prchung.livejournal.com]

Considering your observation, that Rose didn't seem deterred from danger, but even more and more drawn to it with the Tenth Doctor, I wonder if witnessing Nine's regeneration caused her a type of trauma.

One of two things: 1) Witnessing his regeneration gave her a false sense of confidence-- or more so a false sense of immortality. 2) Subconsciously, Rose became more reckless and careless because of the loss she suffered.

Of course, me as bias as I am toward Nine, I'm going to go the route that she was so traumatized that she was trying to get herself killed, subconsciously of course.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Hee.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I would say no just for the fact that Starbuck is now a girl. And because this is a re-make instead of a continuation.

Re: Post Regeneration Trauma?

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I always figured that she was clingy as her post regeneration trauma, because even as much as you know I would love it, I just don't think it was a wish for harm because Nine was gone. She genuine seemed to want to live, but the circumstances that she went about it with Ten, were questionable. Then again, in "The Satan Pit", she wanted to stay behind because of the off-chance the Doctor would make it back up, that was probably as close to suicidal she ever came, IMHO.

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

I hope who_daily picks this up

You'll have to wait till my day on Thursday since I don't think we have a Wednesday editor, but I've bookmarked it and it'll be on there :)

(I agree completely, by the way. Adored Rose in season 1, then she hit the skids somewhere around T&C and never really got it back; probably didn't help that it coincided with Mickey becoming a really good character, I kept wishing we could keep him instead.)

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Awesome.

probably didn't help that it coincided with Mickey becoming a really good character, I kept wishing we could keep him instead

Totally agree there. :)

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying. I just don't feel anything like the same connection between or for Ten and Rose that I felt with Nine and Rose. Some of that is obviously the change in the Doctor. He is just more...lightweight in every sense of the word, and either as written or as played, he just didn't convince me that he had the same emotional wherewithall. And I mean that in terms of his capacity for joy and affection, not just the obvious darkness and emotionality ('cause Lord knows, we shouldn't expect anyone to be better at suffering than Chris Eccleston, it just wouldn't be fair!). But Ten seems more manic/frantic than genuinely joyful most of the time - he had a few moments, but I don't feel that Tennant ever lets his performance breathe. He's too busy performing to just be. And Chris Eccleston is a master of "being".

Both Rose as a character and Billie Piper as an actress have to deal with that change in S2. To be honest, I have admired Billie as an actress far more than I have Rose as a character in S2. Like everything else, Rose was less continuously developed, but Billie did everything she possibly could, except for perhaps in ROTC/AoS - but then I think there's probably some wonky direction, as well as bad writing, in that episode. But in the relationship, I felt it was so much more shallow than with Nine, in every sense of the word, from it being based primarily on looks to coasting emotionally on the developments of S1 to feeling that the emotions and the way that they related to one another physically were just less heartfelt. Rose and Nine could just barely touch, and it was breathtaking and epic. Rose and Ten hanging all over each other just looked like a couple of goofy teenagers. It was not only cute-to-nauseating for them, it felt as if it was undermining the profundity of what we'd had before, and that really bothered me. In some ways, I felt like S2 was cheerfully dismantling everything that made S1 so compelling - with the exceptions of some of the minor characters like Mickey and Jackie. Pete Tyler - as much as I love S1 Pete and Shaun Dingwall - should never have returned (the whole alt!universe is pretty lame, IMO, although useful in fanfic!); and even Sarah Jane was diminished, even though I thought Ten was far better with her than with Rose (and sad that Tennant setting free his inner fanboy was far more effective than his actual acting...).

I understand that to continue the series they could not possibly have sustained the brilliance of S1. And to devolve to stand-alone episodes might not have been a bad idea. The problem is it seems to have fallen into the cracks, with horrible continuity problems and a mismatch between Billie giving us New!Who depth and Tennant giving us Old!School detachment.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Rose and Nine could just barely touch, and it was breathtaking and epic.

Tell me about it, I think one of my favorites was when he took her hand in "Rose" and told her who he was. There's something about handholding that I just love, and it's not because it's hand!porn, I've always liked it, but it's more than a hug, it's just such a support system, and always gets me.

a mismatch between Billie giving us New!Who depth and Tennant giving us Old!School detachment.

That gives me a new thought. Looking back on the differences on season one and season two, it's almost as if they both were tests. Season one was so very adult, in some terms, in that if I were a parent, I would definitely question whether my young children should watch. "Boom Town" just wasn't a kids' episode, IMO. It was dark, and not much like old DW. And then we have season two, where the science is...not science(i.e. makes no sense whatsoever, whereas some of season one made some sort of sense, and I'm thinking "The Unquiet Dead", even "The Long Game", in terms of what was introduced) and the Doctor is even more traditional. It's like, RTD did these seasons to take note of what worked, using extremes here, and now he can take a novel approach to season three. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking.

On a off-note, I was reading something off LJ, some reviews of season 2 episodes, and the reviewer, in his review for "School Reunion", noted that DT showed how much a better actor he was than CE. And I laughed. I love DT, he's adorable, but IMHO, he is not a better actor.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

one of my favorites was when he took her hand in "Rose" and told her who he was.

That was the moment where I felt the New Who got depth - I knew CE could bring it, but I didn't know if he'd be asked. I had been far more worried with him being silly, but he was up for that, too. Is he as comfortable with comedy as Tennant? Not exactly. But is he better at staying in character and giving you emotional depth while being funny? Oh, yeah.

I agree with you about the handholding, though - it's a certain intimacy that is seen as old-fashioned these days, but it's so loaded with emotional purpose.

As for your idea about experimentation - would that it were true, but I have a feeling it's more scrambling and not paying attention on RTD's part. He is capable of a great deal of imagination, but I think discipline is a problem. As he's gotten more freedom/power in S2, I think things have started to get away from him. With Torchwood happening, too, I'm worried. I have enough nervousness about Torchwood, in that while I love John Barrowman's performance as Jack, and I think Jack grew into a fantastic character, I don't actually see him as a team leader. He's a great lieutenant, but I thought his weakest point in S1 was his Henry V moment on Satellite 5. However - and I don't just mean this salaciously - what I wouldn't give for a real, no-holds barred, emotional love scene between Barrowman and Eccleston. They had something really rich going on, and I can see Barrowman doing subtle with an actor that giving. It doesn't even have to have an overt sexual component (a kiss would be nice, but not necessary). This is the other thing about CE as an actor - he really has that ability to draw in those working with him and get a better performance out of them. He listens so beautifully (I just re-watched TEC/TDD last night, and every single moment of his relationship with Florence Hoath/Nancy is pure gold).

DT showed how much a better actor he was than CE.

ROFLMAO. Not in a million years. You can think that Tennant is cuter, funnier, even a better "Doctor" in the OldSkool sense, but no. Just...no. And I don't even think Tennant is fool enough to think that. I think it's Ewan MacGregor all over again - he's flashier, he gets all the attention and squee, but he's going to have to seriously improve to have much of a lasting career (where is he now?). There's a reason Tennant was gigging around for 12-15 years before getting bigger jobs in the last couple of years. Whereas CE starred in 3 of the top 55 British television events/shows ever (according to the BFI) before he was 36, and that's before Who, Othello, Flesh and Blood, and Second Coming!

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Is he as comfortable with comedy as Tennant? Not exactly.

Which is funny that you mention, because people actually noticed that CE seemed uncomforable with the comedy because they said it seemed forced. I don't know if those people have seen him in something before DW, but as a completely new viewer to him and DW, it never seemed forced to me. Actually, one of my favorite moments of him is in "Boom Town", where he's just laughing and living it up in the restaurant with Rose, Mickey and Jack.

With Torchwood happening, too, I'm worried.

Here's hoping the unstable "stucture" in season two was due to perfecting Torchwood, because he really can't stand for that show to be flamed.

They had something really rich going on, and I can see Barrowman doing subtle with an actor that giving.

Most actors work better with the strong actors. Witness on BSG, Jamie Bamber with Edward James Olmos, some of his best scenes are with him. The lead on Smallville is always better with the heavy weights, I think BP worked better with CE. I would love to see JB and CE work together again, in any capacity.

He listens so beautifully (I just re-watched TEC/TDD last night, and every single moment of his relationship with Florence Hoath/Nancy is pure gold).

Him and Nancy are why I love "The Empty Child" that little bit more than "The Doctor Dances", I don't know why.

What's funny about that last bit, is that on the same site, a different writer called CE one of the two best Doctors (with Tom Baker as the other).

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I don't feel that Eccleston is uncomfortable with being relaxed and/or funny at all. I just think that he approaches it as part of a character, whereas I think Tennant looks like he thinks, "I'm doing comedy!" And so a lot of people react to his utterly conventional performance of comedy schtick as being "natural", whereas it's highly artificial. When I say "uncomfortable with comedy", I really mean that CE isn't essentially a "comedy actor", which is a particular style; he's better than that, he's a versatile actor. Is he funny? Oh, yeah. Even RTD has talked about how funny he is, and I've read a number of interviews where he's about the wittiest thing I've ever seen - have you seen the Top Gear clips where he razzes Jeremy Clarkson about being part sheep? then turns around and makes jokes about himself, about being so tight he wouldn't give a door a bang? He's also got some great comic moments in Cracker (best hysterical laughing/crying from a father during childbirth scene ever), and Hearts and Minds:

Drew stands in the middle of a gym full of carnage, looking lost as fire alarms go off and kids gone wild tear up the place

Experienced teacher, soothingly: Don't worry, I've seen worse.
Drew, hopefully: Really?
Teacher: Yeah. I was at Chernobyl.
Drew grins, almost in tears.

Or there's a scene where he's talking to the father of one of the kids on his soccer team and gets headbutted out of the blue - he never telegraphs that it's coming, and the dazed look is priceless.

It doesn't sound funny, again, because it's not "comedy". It's real-life, being funny. And he manages to do that time and time again in DW, make the comedy into not-schtick.

Most actors work better with the strong actors.

That's true - it's like a tennis player rising to meet the level of the opponent. And I agree about the JB/EJO scenes - they are definitely JB's best. I also thought Katee Sackhoff did most of her best work w/EJO in the mini-series/S1; but she struggled with CKR because he doesn't give anything.

I am trying not to give into a Nine & Nancy story. Not necessarily a romance - but it's balanced on a knife-edge, given that whole listening-is-erotic thing. I don't even know what would happen, I just want more. Or CE and Florence Hoath in something else. OMG - I know. Jane Eyre. They would be effing perfect for Jane Eyre!

What's funny about that last bit, is that on the same site, a different writer called CE one of the two best Doctors (with Tom Baker as the other).

Just from looking around, I'd actually say that's a (contentious) consensus. But I see it a lot. Where was this?

I think that TB may have been a better "Doctor" - consolidating the concept, just as CE was the better actor. TB isn't my favourite old-school Doctor (Patrick Troughton is), but I've liked all that I've seen (haven't seen One or Seven). Sadly, Ten is my least-favourite thus far. Yea, even verily less than Six, whom I rather like. He glories in his assholery.

BTW, love that animated Three "mine!" icon. I almost cried when I saw that scene! Jamie and Zoe at end of War Games :'( > Doomsday! /fanspeak

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Awww, just how could I love CE anymore? And I have to see those clips from Top Gear, I've heard about them and want to see them so bad.

Or CE and Florence Hoath in something else. OMG - I know. Jane Eyre. They would be effing perfect for Jane Eyre!

Shouldn't you be a casting directer? 'Cause seriously, you would spoil us with how well you could cast people. Of course, I have a whole list in my head of actresses I want to work with CE.

But I see it a lot. Where was this?

Here (http://www.ggl.com/kunochan/2006/08/best-and-worst-sci-fi-tv-show-openings.html) is where it's mentioned that he's one of the best Doctors. As you can see, the guy talks about the best openings for sci-fi shows, and lists Doctor Who, new and old, as one of the best.

And I'm sorry, it's not on the same site. Here (http://www.the-word-is-not-enough.com/blog/rob/2006/08/top_10_and_bottom_10_scifi_tit.php) that list is criticised and over here (http://www.the-word-is-not-enough.com/blog/rob/2006/04/doctor_who_review.php) is where he mentions how much a better actor DT is than CE. As if he hasn't already done so in all his previous episodes, once again he effortlessly proves he's a far better actor than the previous Doctor Who messiah, Christopher Eccleston.

Only other Doctor I've seen is Five, and I'm really starting to like him better than Ten, even though I can't seem to be able to finish his arcs in one or two sittings.

It's funny that I have a Three icon when I've never seen him, although I would love to get one of his episodes to watch.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I think the Top Gear clip is on YouTube. If not, it's small enough I may be able to upload it - let me know.

Re: CE & FH in Jane Eyre, it just hit me, and now I wish/hope/pray someone at the BBC figures it out. Brooding, dangerous, secretive Rochester? Check. Small, plain-but-beautiful, smart, spunky Jane? Check.

where he mentions how much a better actor DT is than CE.

Where the man proves he's a flaming idiot. Here is someone who says he writes for entertainment mags (free-lance? unemployed, perhaps), but doesn't even know the difference between an A story and a B story? In no way is Sarah Jane part of the A story (the sub-Buffy bat takeover of the school); she's literally there to cover it, inherently outside it. Now, granted, the B story may be more resonant than the A story (which is pretty lame), but it is wholly dependent upon the A story for its existence. He flunks Screenwriting 101. Not that all TV episodes have to follow an A/B story pattern, but this one most certainly does. Nothing like proving you're illiterate in the very field in which you're trumpeting your expertise!

That icon is from Spearhead from Space, which is Three's regeneration episode. Those are Two's shoes he's grabbing. There's much, much more emotional oomph there, but I won't spoil.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I'll have to check out YouTube tomorrow.

Where the man proves he's a flaming idiot.

*nods*

So, I'll most likely be checking out Spearhead from Space soon enough.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

Watch War Games first. It's long and in parts a wee bit tedious ('cause of repetition between episodes), but the end is, IMO, worse than Doomsday, emotionally. It's the sort of thing I wish RTD had had the guts to do.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Will do!

[spellingwitch.livejournal.com]

One would think after traveling with the Doctor for a matter of time, you would be more wary of the danger, instead of less.

YES! I'm only up to the 5th episode of S2 (the first part of the Cybermen) and I have to say, when Mickey and Rose both walked off in opposite directions from the Doctor to do whatever they wanted in the parallel universe, I was like, "WTF??" Especially Rose. I was like, "Did you learn *nothing* from almost bringing about the end of the world in Father's Day???" It's really unfair to the Doctor, and if I was him at that point I'd have been pissed at the both of them. I mean he's giving an incredible gift, it doesn't mean you can just run reckless with it.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Heh, I think the Doctor was plenty anger when they did that to him. And reckless is a good word to use with them.

[spellingwitch.livejournal.com]

I just want to say how much I love the hand-holding too :) It's subtle but so powerful.

Here via who_daily

[spiralsheep.livejournal.com]

No discussion from me because I agree with everything you said.

First season Rose > second season Rose.

[spellingwitch.livejournal.com]

Ten seems more manic/frantic than genuinely joyful most of the time - he had a few moments, but I don't feel that Tennant ever lets his performance breathe. He's too busy performing to just be.

a mismatch between Billie giving us New!Who depth and Tennant giving us Old!School detachment.

You are really nailing it here. CE's effervescence was just so much more fun - like he was really enjoying himself and loving the people and worlds he was visiting. And yet he had his subtle moments too - like leaning against something with arms and ankles crossed, just observing and letting events unfold. DT is too busy being manic for that.

Re: Here via who_daily

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I need to icon that.

[tinuvielberen.livejournal.com]

Lots of thoughtful discussion here.

I think the problem in S2 is that Rose transformed from unique individual to Doctor's Companion. Even Jackie (in AoG) pointed out that Rose was losing her identity. Her suicidality in Satan's Pit is the ultimate expression of that.

Because her identity became so closely allied with the Doctor, she necessarily became clingy and jealous; and at the same time, willing to overlook his infidelities.

No relationship like this can go on; it is doomed. So, even though I might not like Rose's S2 character very much, I have to admire the story arc that made the end of Doomsday the only possible outcome for the relationship.