Doctor Who, IMO

[meganlynn09]

Too lazy to put this under a cut, SEASON TWO SPOILERS. 

You know it's been bothering me for a while now that I could ship Nine/Rose and not Ten/Rose, I almost considered myself a hypocrite, which I'm not because it's perfectly reasonable to ship one and not the other.

I always thought it was only because Rose was too clingy and they acted like immature teenagers.  But it's more.

I didn't really like Rose in season two, and I really don't want to hear more of that "I loved her even more for her flaws in season two" because to me it's crap.  Just because I loved the character in season one, doesn't mean I'm gonna cut her slack in season two.  It's how I've always been with my characters.  She just wasn't as good anymore.  She never questioned Ten, she was jealous over the littlest of things and treated others (like Mickey) like they weren't a part of her "clique" with Ten.  

That bothered me on a more personal level because I had a friend that would do that.  If her boyfriend was around, her friends would be forgotten, if her boyfriend was ignoring me (which happened often as we never got along), she would too.  So, maybe that's why I didn't really appreciate Rose in season two.  More-so, it comes down to the fact of what RTD was saying, that the Doctor "Time Lorded" or whatever Rose.  That wasn't a good thing!  She wasn't confidant in season 2, she was foolishly smug to the point where danger didn't matter as long as she was with the Doctor.

That bothered me as well.  It's one thing to risk your life for someone, like the Doctor and Rose did for each other, but to not really care about what you could be stepping into, that's not cool.  One would think after traveling with the Doctor for a matter of time, you would be more wary of the danger, instead of less.  And yet, she seemed to be enjoying it more and more, and that's unsettling for myself.  Hmmm, this is the first time I really thought about that. 

My point, though, is that I can't really ship a couple when I don't like one of the two.  Especially if I don't really like either of them.  Same thing with BSG.  I've pretty much given up Kara/Lee (Starbuck/Apollo) because season two turned Kara into a character I didn't like anymore.

Overall, I can blame a lot of this on the writers.  But the handlers of the show know what's gonna be on air, so really, with the characters, I can't blame the writers at the same time.  'Cause are you really going to tell me that someone like RTD or whoever doesn't view the episodes before they air?  I pretty much know for a fact that he does.

Could this be why, at the end of "Doomsday", I was relieved?  Even though I did cry, not so much for Doctor/Rose, but because I really will miss Rose from once upon a time.

I hope who_daily picks this up, I'm up for a good discussion.

Comments

[prchung.livejournal.com]

Briefly, before I forget, "I loved her even more for her flaws in season two" because to me it's crap. I just had to say, "God, you're amazing!" And now on with the rest of your post...

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Hee.

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

I say that all the time and that too has always been the way I am with my characters. I love them even more for their flaws. Rose, Veronica, Buffy, Cordelia and so on and so on. The more flaws they give them, the more I love them.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

My whole comment, I don't know if you saw, was that that argument, to me, IMO, was crap. To others, that's fine, but to me, I don't like that. There are just certain flaws that I don't like in my characters.

[pheonix-iz-me.livejournal.com]

firstly, pretty much yes to all.

Secondly, I have yet to watch the new BSG but something you just said does make me wonder, does Shipping Starbuck/Apollo in the new series Canonise Starbuck/Apollo slash from the original series?

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I would say no just for the fact that Starbuck is now a girl. And because this is a re-make instead of a continuation.

Post Regeneration Trauma?

[prchung.livejournal.com]

Considering your observation, that Rose didn't seem deterred from danger, but even more and more drawn to it with the Tenth Doctor, I wonder if witnessing Nine's regeneration caused her a type of trauma.

One of two things: 1) Witnessing his regeneration gave her a false sense of confidence-- or more so a false sense of immortality. 2) Subconsciously, Rose became more reckless and careless because of the loss she suffered.

Of course, me as bias as I am toward Nine, I'm going to go the route that she was so traumatized that she was trying to get herself killed, subconsciously of course.

Re: Post Regeneration Trauma?

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I always figured that she was clingy as her post regeneration trauma, because even as much as you know I would love it, I just don't think it was a wish for harm because Nine was gone. She genuine seemed to want to live, but the circumstances that she went about it with Ten, were questionable. Then again, in "The Satan Pit", she wanted to stay behind because of the off-chance the Doctor would make it back up, that was probably as close to suicidal she ever came, IMHO.

Re: Post Regeneration Trauma?

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I reckon it'd be horribly easy to start thinking you were invulnerable if you were a companion. Because the Doctor always saves the world and he always drops everything to make sure you're okay. He'll just regenerate if he gets killed so it's like you're both immortal.

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

I hope who_daily picks this up

You'll have to wait till my day on Thursday since I don't think we have a Wednesday editor, but I've bookmarked it and it'll be on there :)

(I agree completely, by the way. Adored Rose in season 1, then she hit the skids somewhere around T&C and never really got it back; probably didn't help that it coincided with Mickey becoming a really good character, I kept wishing we could keep him instead.)

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Awesome.

probably didn't help that it coincided with Mickey becoming a really good character, I kept wishing we could keep him instead

Totally agree there. :)

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying. I just don't feel anything like the same connection between or for Ten and Rose that I felt with Nine and Rose. Some of that is obviously the change in the Doctor. He is just more...lightweight in every sense of the word, and either as written or as played, he just didn't convince me that he had the same emotional wherewithall. And I mean that in terms of his capacity for joy and affection, not just the obvious darkness and emotionality ('cause Lord knows, we shouldn't expect anyone to be better at suffering than Chris Eccleston, it just wouldn't be fair!). But Ten seems more manic/frantic than genuinely joyful most of the time - he had a few moments, but I don't feel that Tennant ever lets his performance breathe. He's too busy performing to just be. And Chris Eccleston is a master of "being".

Both Rose as a character and Billie Piper as an actress have to deal with that change in S2. To be honest, I have admired Billie as an actress far more than I have Rose as a character in S2. Like everything else, Rose was less continuously developed, but Billie did everything she possibly could, except for perhaps in ROTC/AoS - but then I think there's probably some wonky direction, as well as bad writing, in that episode. But in the relationship, I felt it was so much more shallow than with Nine, in every sense of the word, from it being based primarily on looks to coasting emotionally on the developments of S1 to feeling that the emotions and the way that they related to one another physically were just less heartfelt. Rose and Nine could just barely touch, and it was breathtaking and epic. Rose and Ten hanging all over each other just looked like a couple of goofy teenagers. It was not only cute-to-nauseating for them, it felt as if it was undermining the profundity of what we'd had before, and that really bothered me. In some ways, I felt like S2 was cheerfully dismantling everything that made S1 so compelling - with the exceptions of some of the minor characters like Mickey and Jackie. Pete Tyler - as much as I love S1 Pete and Shaun Dingwall - should never have returned (the whole alt!universe is pretty lame, IMO, although useful in fanfic!); and even Sarah Jane was diminished, even though I thought Ten was far better with her than with Rose (and sad that Tennant setting free his inner fanboy was far more effective than his actual acting...).

I understand that to continue the series they could not possibly have sustained the brilliance of S1. And to devolve to stand-alone episodes might not have been a bad idea. The problem is it seems to have fallen into the cracks, with horrible continuity problems and a mismatch between Billie giving us New!Who depth and Tennant giving us Old!School detachment.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Rose and Nine could just barely touch, and it was breathtaking and epic.

Tell me about it, I think one of my favorites was when he took her hand in "Rose" and told her who he was. There's something about handholding that I just love, and it's not because it's hand!porn, I've always liked it, but it's more than a hug, it's just such a support system, and always gets me.

a mismatch between Billie giving us New!Who depth and Tennant giving us Old!School detachment.

That gives me a new thought. Looking back on the differences on season one and season two, it's almost as if they both were tests. Season one was so very adult, in some terms, in that if I were a parent, I would definitely question whether my young children should watch. "Boom Town" just wasn't a kids' episode, IMO. It was dark, and not much like old DW. And then we have season two, where the science is...not science(i.e. makes no sense whatsoever, whereas some of season one made some sort of sense, and I'm thinking "The Unquiet Dead", even "The Long Game", in terms of what was introduced) and the Doctor is even more traditional. It's like, RTD did these seasons to take note of what worked, using extremes here, and now he can take a novel approach to season three. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking.

On a off-note, I was reading something off LJ, some reviews of season 2 episodes, and the reviewer, in his review for "School Reunion", noted that DT showed how much a better actor he was than CE. And I laughed. I love DT, he's adorable, but IMHO, he is not a better actor.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

one of my favorites was when he took her hand in "Rose" and told her who he was.

That was the moment where I felt the New Who got depth - I knew CE could bring it, but I didn't know if he'd be asked. I had been far more worried with him being silly, but he was up for that, too. Is he as comfortable with comedy as Tennant? Not exactly. But is he better at staying in character and giving you emotional depth while being funny? Oh, yeah.

I agree with you about the handholding, though - it's a certain intimacy that is seen as old-fashioned these days, but it's so loaded with emotional purpose.

As for your idea about experimentation - would that it were true, but I have a feeling it's more scrambling and not paying attention on RTD's part. He is capable of a great deal of imagination, but I think discipline is a problem. As he's gotten more freedom/power in S2, I think things have started to get away from him. With Torchwood happening, too, I'm worried. I have enough nervousness about Torchwood, in that while I love John Barrowman's performance as Jack, and I think Jack grew into a fantastic character, I don't actually see him as a team leader. He's a great lieutenant, but I thought his weakest point in S1 was his Henry V moment on Satellite 5. However - and I don't just mean this salaciously - what I wouldn't give for a real, no-holds barred, emotional love scene between Barrowman and Eccleston. They had something really rich going on, and I can see Barrowman doing subtle with an actor that giving. It doesn't even have to have an overt sexual component (a kiss would be nice, but not necessary). This is the other thing about CE as an actor - he really has that ability to draw in those working with him and get a better performance out of them. He listens so beautifully (I just re-watched TEC/TDD last night, and every single moment of his relationship with Florence Hoath/Nancy is pure gold).

DT showed how much a better actor he was than CE.

ROFLMAO. Not in a million years. You can think that Tennant is cuter, funnier, even a better "Doctor" in the OldSkool sense, but no. Just...no. And I don't even think Tennant is fool enough to think that. I think it's Ewan MacGregor all over again - he's flashier, he gets all the attention and squee, but he's going to have to seriously improve to have much of a lasting career (where is he now?). There's a reason Tennant was gigging around for 12-15 years before getting bigger jobs in the last couple of years. Whereas CE starred in 3 of the top 55 British television events/shows ever (according to the BFI) before he was 36, and that's before Who, Othello, Flesh and Blood, and Second Coming!

[spellingwitch.livejournal.com]

Ten seems more manic/frantic than genuinely joyful most of the time - he had a few moments, but I don't feel that Tennant ever lets his performance breathe. He's too busy performing to just be.

a mismatch between Billie giving us New!Who depth and Tennant giving us Old!School detachment.

You are really nailing it here. CE's effervescence was just so much more fun - like he was really enjoying himself and loving the people and worlds he was visiting. And yet he had his subtle moments too - like leaning against something with arms and ankles crossed, just observing and letting events unfold. DT is too busy being manic for that.

[spellingwitch.livejournal.com]

One would think after traveling with the Doctor for a matter of time, you would be more wary of the danger, instead of less.

YES! I'm only up to the 5th episode of S2 (the first part of the Cybermen) and I have to say, when Mickey and Rose both walked off in opposite directions from the Doctor to do whatever they wanted in the parallel universe, I was like, "WTF??" Especially Rose. I was like, "Did you learn *nothing* from almost bringing about the end of the world in Father's Day???" It's really unfair to the Doctor, and if I was him at that point I'd have been pissed at the both of them. I mean he's giving an incredible gift, it doesn't mean you can just run reckless with it.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Heh, I think the Doctor was plenty anger when they did that to him. And reckless is a good word to use with them.

Here via who_daily

[spiralsheep.livejournal.com]

No discussion from me because I agree with everything you said.

First season Rose > second season Rose.

Re: Here via who_daily

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I need to icon that.

[tinuvielberen.livejournal.com]

Lots of thoughtful discussion here.

I think the problem in S2 is that Rose transformed from unique individual to Doctor's Companion. Even Jackie (in AoG) pointed out that Rose was losing her identity. Her suicidality in Satan's Pit is the ultimate expression of that.

Because her identity became so closely allied with the Doctor, she necessarily became clingy and jealous; and at the same time, willing to overlook his infidelities.

No relationship like this can go on; it is doomed. So, even though I might not like Rose's S2 character very much, I have to admire the story arc that made the end of Doomsday the only possible outcome for the relationship.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

That's so very true, and your points are well made. Perhaps it is the outcome and the circumstances that bring it about that are most bothersome. I know Rose is the "typical" teenager (which utter shames me since I'm Rose's age) but come on, was this the ideal outcome RTD wished for? If so, I'd like to question him about some things.

*in from the daily*

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I hope [info]who_daily picks this up, I'm up for a good discussion.

It did! ;)


You know it's been bothering me for a while now that I could ship Nine/Rose and not Ten/Rose, I almost considered myself a hypocrite, which I'm not because it's perfectly reasonable to ship one and not the other.

I think it's totally reasonable. Hell, I shipped Ten/Sarah liek woah and don't get all that moved by Four/Sarah. Different dynamics and all. (Which is one reason I'm trying to reserve judgement on Ten/Jack, cos it might be awesome or they might just fail to have UST.)

Re: *in from the daily*

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I'm glad it seems reasonable, at least there's something that some people can try and agree on.

I'm afraid that Ten/Jack won't work well, but you're right, we'll have to wait and see!

God, I loved Ten and Sarah Jane.

tl;dr alert!

[iamtheliquorr.livejournal.com]

Here via who_daily. I'm going to be a noncomformist and say... I don't agree. I'm not going to argue, though, b/c it's your opinion, and you have a right to it. But this opinion seems to be quite popular and I'm truly bewildered and a bit perturbed by the fact that I don't see this at all. Seriously. I didn't see a huge change in Rose, and what I did see, I attributed to the changing and shifting nature of her relationship with a new Doctor who is very different from Nine.

Perhaps my opinion is different b/c I watched S1-2 over a couple of weeks in this massive who-a-thon... I came in late to the show, so I didn't have two years to watch the change gradually. I'm due for a re-viewing so maybe I'll see something I didn't see before.

As for the "I loved her even more for her flaws in season two" I have never made that argument, mostly b/c I didn't see a huge change in S2. I like to think I'm not blinded by character love b/c I have been critical of characters i've loved in the past. I had a similar experience to your BSG one in Smallville... I used to ship Clark/Lana, and Lana was once my favorite character. Then in S4 they destroyed her to the extent that I now loathe her. So of course I can't ship C/L anymore b/c I don't particularly like either of them right now. I was openly critical of Lana even when she was still my favorite, which, shall we say, was an exceedingly unpopular opinion at this Clark/Lana board at which I used to post.

This is not to say I'm not critical of Rose, just that I'm a bit weirded out by the fact that so many fans are annoyed by her in S2 and I was never annoyed by her or by Rose/Ten. I wonder what I'm watching that I don't see this. It's wigging me out. Or maybe I'm just really shallow and not look that deep. I do watch the O.C., after all.

Re: tl;dr alert!

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

It's fine that you disagree and that you have a different opinion. It's something to expect in this fandom.

It's always easy to read characters and character interactions differently. Take for example that I don't like a character on BSG that many love. I don't see how they love that character and that's fine, it's just their opinion.

I will admit though, that I'm so envious of the people that enjoyed season two, and Ten/Rose. Something about the writing and their relationship rubbed me the wrong way.

I welcome different opinions. And I suppose all I can offer is that, you'll be hard pressed to find people that agree with your views 100%. Not that you won't find that or that you haven't already, but in a fandom such as this, you'll always find some weird, differing POV. And just to put out there, I saw my first episode of this show ever, didn't even know what this show was, until March of this year. So, I'm pretty new to it as well.