Rant/Meta/Whatever about Fandom

[meganlynn09]

Even after being in fandoms for a few short years, I'm still continually amazed by how differently episodes, scenes and even characters are interpreted.

Before online fandom, I was never really aware that shows had so many different factions of people. How hated some characters were, and how loved others were. Yes, I was naive enough to think that most people probably felt the same way I did when watching a show! But I was quite young, so it's understandable.

This has never been so blindingly obvious to me as reading reviews for the new season of Doctor Who. And even S2 of the show.



I know some of you think I hated Rose, but I didn't! I loved her very much, S1 was my favorite obvious, and while I was openly critical of her in S2, it was because I loved her character so much. And was disappointed, in her and the writing of S2. And other things that I'm not talking about right now.

So seeing people saying "Martha's SOOOO much better/smarter/more mature than Rose" is just like a kick to the stomach. And then seeing "Martha's a bitch/undeserving, bring Rose back" just makes me want to embrace Martha even more.

It's like, people who see Rose!hate love Rose more and people who see Martha!hate love her more(sometimes, you know?). I'm experiencing both. Quite an odd situation.

It's just very odd to go from one opinion where Martha's the cat's meow to another where DW/RTD is now the viewer's sworn enemy because the Doctor dare talk to another woman. Just very...weird. OKAY, that was a slight exaggeration, but you know what I mean.

Also, it hurts my brain when people forget, IT WAS BILLIE'S REQUEST TO LEAVE THE SHOW. Rose is gone because Billie was done with the show. I know it hurts, but don't act like RTD just decided to throw Rose out.

And of course people are entitled to think what they think. I just wish more of them would think "Martha's not a replacement, she's just the new person to travel with the Doctor". I mean, would any of you consider Sarah Jane a replacement or Rose herself a replacement? Because technically, if you're looking at Martha as "The Replacement", every single other companion deserves the same title. And that is what I think.


I'm not even paying attention to the Torchwood fandom right now because all the Gwen hate kinda hurts. She was a problematic character, but dude. The hate is so voluminous that I can almost feel it myself.

And for now, you couldn't pay be enough to touch the SGA fandom with a ten-foot pole.

Okay, this post wasn't what I set out for, so I'm done.

*HUGS MY FUCKING F-LIST SO TIGHT*

Comments

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

But didn't you start watching the classic episodes after watching the new series? How would you have stopped watching after S2? *Confused*

I'm feeling you on that

[amazonx.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking to SGA and all those folks who split on it.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean. If all people have left to do is complain about the new companion, how do they expect to actually like the show?

No one is a replacement for anyone.

Exactly, that's a point that everyone watching this show and in this fandom need to understand.

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

*Shrugs* For me, I have seen more of the OMGZ Martha is the bestest evah and she is so much better then Rose then anything else. In fact, I saw that from the moment she was cast along with a whole group of old schoolers and/or Rose haters who swore up and down to love Martha no matter what (except they used qualifiers so as not to appear wanky. It didn't work.) I predicted that group's reaction from day one and they did not in any way disappoint. I have seen Martha hate, usually by the younger fans, but I really don't hang out in gen Who comms so I have been able to avoid most of it. But of course I have been filled in on some of the reactions that I knew would be coming.

It is kind of laughable how extreme this fandom is. Because it couldn't just be possible to look at them as separate characters and like them both. IMO Martha in no way dimishes what Rose was and vice versa. But I think people need to feel some kind of vindication. So more power to them.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

For the most part, on my f-list, I've only seen people say they really like Martha. I don't think I've seen much, if at all, downcasting on Rose. Which just makes me happy.

It is kind of laughable how extreme this fandom is. Because it couldn't just be possible to look at them as separate characters and like them both.

That's where a lot of my frustration comes from. And it doesn't matter if it comes from someone who is 14 or 41. But if people just want to vent about the show, fine. I'll just breathe quietly and stuff.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

It's like, people who see Rose!hate love Rose more and people who see Martha!hate love her more(sometimes, you know?). I'm experiencing both. Quite an odd situation.

Yep. I know what you mean. Now, I haven't exactly been shy about my loathing of Ten, but it actually has nothing to do with Nine. I was resigned to his leaving, and perhaps there is a wee bit of whiplash as we go from the best actor to play the Doctor (and even among Old School fans, there seems to be some consensus on that point, if not on liking him) to one of, if not the, least accomplished and subtle. But honestly, it was Ten's own actions that made me dislike him - I was going with him pretty much until he dissed Harriet, and I'm just not havin' that!

But I like Rose and Martha both, and I was kind of stunned at the amount of "Rose was stupid/lowclass/cheap" coming even from fans I thought tolerated her pretty well.

I shall just treasure S1 as a blissful anomaly. That's when Who became and was what I had wanted all along. I would have liked it to last longer, but at least we got 13 top-flight episodes (I'd still rather watch TLG or AoL/WWIII than anything post-POTW, except for a few isolated scenes). And enjoy S3 as a romp that has nothing to do with S1, so long as they don't do more of the undermining they did in S2.

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

I was resigned to his leaving, and perhaps there is a wee bit of whiplash as we go from the best actor to play the Doctor (and even among Old School fans, there seems to be some consensus on that point, if not on liking him)

That's interesting. I thought Four held the most love among DW vets.

[prchung.livejournal.com]

I shall just treasure S1 as a blissful anomaly. That's when Who became and was what I had wanted all along. I would have liked it to last longer, but at least we got 13 top-flight episodes (I'd still rather watch TLG or AoL/WWIII than anything post-POTW, except for a few isolated scenes).

An incredible summing up of exactly how I feel.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

But I like Rose and Martha both, and I was kind of stunned at the amount of "Rose was stupid/lowclass/cheap" coming even from fans I thought tolerated her pretty well.

So was I! I was somewhat shocked to see everyone just cast aside how good Rose used to be.

(I'd still rather watch TLG or AoL/WWIII than anything post-POTW, except for a few isolated scenes).

Aw man! You casted TLG with AoL/WWIII! Heh, you know me. I have such a secret crush on that episode.

Heh, I so know what you mean

[amazonx.livejournal.com]

Kay, so, I loved on Rose, really did. What a squee she was! But she was INTENTIONALLY YOUNG AND NAIVE! The Doctor never would have shared HALF of the information with her that he had if she had been as old and smart and sophisticated as Martha. Thus WE WOULD NOT HAVE LEARNED about the Doctor and his travels. I'm a Doctor Virgin when it comes to history, really. Nine is my first Doctor, and my favorite, but it doesn't stop me from loving the HELL out Ten. And I do! Martha is so new and interesting, I think she's great! I'm just all a-tingly about it!

Now, as for Gwen, she is also naive about Torchwood for the same reason. To learn about things, so that WE as the audience can learn as well. Otherwise, the team would just do all that stuff and no exposition would happen and we'd be clueless.

SGA..yeah, Sheppard cannot be that stupid, can he? No, he is our exposition, people! Rodney has to tell Shep and Elizabeth what he's doing so that WE as the audience know this.

And as for the nonsense over the "shrill lemmings" thing...well, there's a huge group of people that have stopped talking to me because I told one person to get over it, because I was tired of the histrionics. Shows you just how mature fandom can be.

Re: Heh, I so know what you mean

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

she was INTENTIONALLY YOUNG AND NAIVE! The Doctor never would have shared HALF of the information with her that he had if she had been as old and smart and sophisticated as Martha.

Exactly. Can you imagine Nine with Martha? Actually, I can, but it would be a totally different relationship, and she would never get a peep out of him. Hence, as you say, no exposition.

I have a harder time thinking of Rose going off initially with Ten without it seeming incredibly sleazy...

Re: Heh, I so know what you mean

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

You make a very good point, I like it.

OMG, are you NOT a Gwen hater?! Heh, sorry, I'm too used to seeing people just completely bash her.

Oh SGA.

And as for the nonsense over the "shrill lemmings" thing

Yeah, but on one hand I want to say "Get over it" and on the other hand, how they're handling all the changes and questions from people just isn't cool. I'm not happy with the direction they're taking, but I'm not all "Get your pitchforks" about it. I don't know. On one hand, it all seems so trivial and on the other hand it feels like SGA's just trying to ruin itself. *shrugs*

[velvet-midnight.livejournal.com]

I know. It's so weird, yeah? Like, I loved Rose, she was real, she was human, she was cool, but it was Billie's decision. Sometimes, it's just like Rose will always in our hearts and in our fanfic, and she's right over there, in her little DVD box, whenever you want to see her again. I haven't watched Smith and Jones yet, but read a couple of recaps (one of which was, yes, a Rose!lover, but one who accepted Martha, and liked her as a character, which was refreshing) and I don't see any reason to hate Martha. She seems...nice.

Also, on the ship thing...I haven't watched much old!skool, but one of the most obvious points of the show is that the Doctor is 900+ years old and will be around for God knows how many more. He's loved women people before and has learned to get through the pain. He's not stuck with one person and their memory until he dies.

*sigh*

Sorry for the ramble. :)

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Yes, you stole me words! I think you'd like Smith and Jones.

And you put my thoughts into words again. Heh! No, you understand my points very well and that's so appreciated.

[calapine.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I had those feelings about Rose too: loved her season one and became really disappointed with the way she went in season two. Mostly she was saved for me by the way she managed to come into her own again when she was away from the Doctor.

On the bright side, all this new stuff seems to have killed dead the decades old arguments about JNT - Doctor Who's last producer. Hurrah!

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Yes, definitely!

And heh!

[arefadedaway.livejournal.com]

There is far too much intelligent meta on my flist. I just go "Fuck, Chris has a nice neck."

I lack the mental capacity to be decent at meta discussion, but know that once again I word everything. Rose's progression in S2 pisses me off as much as it does because I adored her. Love Martha for Martha and Rose for Rose, fandom.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Love Martha for Martha and Rose for Rose, fandom.

Yes, exactly.

Dude, are you calling this intelligent meta? Or all the discussion? Either way, I'm just extremely happy that I have such an understanding f-list.

[prchung.livejournal.com]

*g* Love the way you put that: "Fuck, Chris has a nice neck."

[prchung.livejournal.com]

(I made it back...)

The factions within fandoms can create a wide and scary battle field. There's such a thing as respecting another's opinion and having a logical discussion about differing views, and then there are the all out flame wars and attempts to bend people around to another view entirely.

I've seen some friendships and groups totally torn apart by such things. I've personally desolved communications from one group because of their hostilities toward characters in another fandom. And I have to say, I appreciate the passion that goes into such battles, but it seems so very silly and a bit concerning at times. It's just a show, it's just fiction. And that's why I feel so appalled by my own silliness about the word "run" being used in S3 the same way it was when Nine and Rose met. It was a real disappointment, and I ranted about it, but I wouldn't fight someone on it if they remarked. I'd discuss my view, but it's not worth the time to fight over it.

As I'd mentioned below I can't say either way about Martha, but I do agree with you about Rose in S2. It wasn't like she was herself anymore. As much as I was annoyed by Ten and all his hopping around, I was just as disappointed in Rose and her flippancy and arrogance toward danger.

Nine and Rose: perfect, beautiful and heartwrenchingly tragic. But this just didn't continue between her and Ten, and it all had to do with chemistry. David's a fine little guy, but he's no Eccleston.

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

Nine and Rose: perfect, beautiful and heartwrenchingly tragic. But this just didn't continue between her and Ten, and it all had to do with chemistry. David's a fine little guy, but he's no Eccleston.


And that's where the respect comes in. I know so many who liked Rose more in S2 and thought she had better chemistry with Ten then Nine. I am in the group that loved both pairings equally and adored Rose's flaws in the second season. I thought BP and DT's chemistry was phenomonal in a completely different way then her chemistry with CE and I loved them both. And there is room for both opinions in this huge fandom without groups needing to set against each other.

*I am glad you are okay sweetie.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

This fandom can be quite a scary battlefield, now that you mention it, you're very right about that! It kinda makes me sick though to see people tear apart each other just over disagreements about a TV show.

And that's why I feel so appalled by my own silliness about the word "run" being used in S3 the same way it was when Nine and Rose met.

See, and you know how much I love my Nine/Rose, I kinda liked it! Heh. It's like, Rose was specifically written for Nine and that didn't translate, for me, to her and Ten. And now Martha is being specifically written for Ten and it's like a full circle. In my weirded-out mind. Yeah.

Nine and Rose: perfect, beautiful and heartwrenchingly tragic. But this just didn't continue between her and Ten, and it all had to do with chemistry. David's a fine little guy, but he's no Eccleston.

You know, I've said it too much in this thread, but I'll say it again. Perfectly worded, EXACTLY what I was thinking. Beautiful.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

Replying to this now because I'm slowly catching up on my flist.

So seeing people saying "Martha's SOOOO much better/smarter/more mature than Rose" is just like a kick to the stomach. And then seeing "Martha's a bitch/undeserving, bring Rose back" just makes me want to embrace Martha even more.

I'm so very glad I've been careful about whose post-ep DW reviews to read. Really. I've seen some of that, but not apparently to the extent that you have. Gah. *shudders*

I've also managed to miss the extreme hatred of Martha, but I think that's because I hang out in the sane end of the Rose pool and try to ignore the crazy kids over in the deep end.

Personally, although I'm still getting to know Martha, I like both her and Rose. Both have faults that I'm not particularly fond of, but that's what makes them good characters.

I'm not even paying attention to the Torchwood fandom right now because all the Gwen hate kinda hurts. She was a problematic character, but dude. The hate is so voluminous that I can almost feel it myself.

Blech. Is it really that bad? I haven't seen too much lately, but then I haven't been reading the main comm posts much, except when I have to do the newsletter. Also haven't read much fanfiction, which if I'm any judge from previous fandoms is where a lot of character hate comes out.

And for now, you couldn't pay be enough to touch the SGA fandom with a ten-foot pole.

*snerk* No kidding. *kaBOOM!*

There are very few characters ever that I've hated, and even then most of them were in a "love to hate" kind of way, not actual "Please remove them from this story for I never wish to see them again and I wouldn't mind if they got blown up" hate.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Blech. Is it really that bad? (Re: Gwen hate)

Yes, it is, pretty much all on the main Torchwood comm. I don't read Torchwood fic, so I don't know about that, but it's just wow!

There are very few characters ever that I've hated, and even then most of them were in a "love to hate" kind of way

There were characters I just haven't warmed up to, and there were characters where the writers just ruined them. I mean ruined them.