Doctor Who Series 1 Finale

[meganlynn09]

OMG, how the hell can you know every detail, watch the episode many many times, and then watch in on TV where some bits are cut and there are commercials, and still get those huge smiles on your face at certain parts and get choked up at others?  Huh?  What the hell is up with that?

It's the curse of being a sentimental woman, damnit!

But yeah, just watched "The Parting of the Ways" on SciFi.  Thank god I watched it uncut before.  I'd have been a little lost.  Like my dad who came down to watch the last 20 minutes when I asked him if he wanted to watch the Doctor die.  He was like, "Yeah."  It was sort of funny.  But the regeneration confused him.  He didn't understand.  I tried to explain it too him, but he really didn't care.

Although it was really funny to watch some of "Bad Wolf" with him (my dad).  The best was when Jack was first de-clothed and said "Ladies, your viewing figures just went up."  My dad looked at me with the most amused look on his face.  Like, "Is this guy for real?"  I told him "That's Captain Jack."  He didn't watch the rest of the episode though.  I don't think he really likes it, he's not that in to British programming.  Thank god I am.

So, I was wondering, for those on my flist that watch Doctor Who, if you could share with me your first thoughts after you first watched "The Parting of the Ways" and if you were as spoiled for it was I was.

I began so entranced by this show by the third episode, I went online and found everything I could about the show, and was spoiled for the whole of series one before the forth episode aired.

So, first reactions to "The Parting of the Ways"?

OMG, HOW COULD I FORGET?  GOODBYE MY BELOVED NINE!!!  *flails*  He's gone.  *sobs* 

Comments

[syven.livejournal.com]

My first thoughts as the credits rolled on PotW was... NOOOOOO!!!

My reaction was completely foolish and emotional. I lost "my" doctor and I was completely unwilling to accept or understand anything else. I was pretty heartbroken, honestly.

In retrospect, I wish they had never brought CE onboard and I wish they had not given the actors such a pronounced under current of unrequited love. CE was too good for that role.

I still miss him. :(

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

When I found out CE was leaving shortly after I started watching the series, I didn't think I would care that much. I knew I liked him, but by "The Long Game", I didn't think I could watch without him. I changed my mind, but I still wish he was there or like you said, wasn't there at all.

I never thought I would actually miss him as the Doctor, but a few minutes after the last episode aired on SciFi last night, I felt it!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

[andromeda05.livejournal.com]

You're not alone, I don't think I found out he was going to die until maybe the fourth epsiode, when I realized it was on the BBC and that the seasons and characters were very different. AFter doing some hunting I was spoiled, I found out a little bit, then later back around the first two parter I actually got to watch the Parting of the Ways on Youtube.com, which just for the record I didn't cry nearly as much for!

Alas I watched this episode last night, the one I've been dreading and waiting for since they started the show, and I was crying within the first like two minutes cause I knew he was going to die. But it was an amazing epsiode, I love the end, absolutely beautiful sad but beautiful. I'll miss Jack a lot.

I can't even imagine watching this show anymore without Chris being in it, I mean I've watched David on youtube.com but seeing him on screen for the very first time last night was quite hard for me, becuase suddenly I had to accept that moving on was a good thing. I love DT, and I can't imagine the tenth series without DT playing the doctor, I mean I can see different parts where Chris woudl say something different, but it's DT all the way, just like this first season I can't imagine it without Chris.

Well sure you didn't want quite that long lol! My thouhts

GOODBYE DOCTOR NUMBER NINE YOU'VE BEEN OUR NORTHERN STAR!

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Oh, you can make your thoughts as long as you want! :)

I actually got to watch the Parting of the Ways on Youtube.com, which just for the record I didn't cry nearly as much for!

I had to fight myself not to watch it on YouTube. It was hard, and I sort of failed, but in the end I didn't watch the whole thing. I did find it another way, watched all the episodes in order, and than PoTW.

Alas I watched this episode last night, the one I've been dreading and waiting for since they started the show, and I was crying within the first like two minutes cause I knew he was going to die.

It doesn't start for me until the Doctor runs out of the TARDIS to send Rose home. That's when I'm gone.

Thanks for sharing with me!

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I was lucky to see it on DVD knowing only that CE was leaving.

For all its plot holes (even before SciFi got out the scissors), I was completely drawn in by the performances.

I knew that the Doctor would rescue Rose, but I didn't expect it to be the first thing in the second part - that was a surprise. I loved his "I wasn't going to tell them that aside to Jack," and "I'm the Doctor, and if there's one thing I can do, it's talk," but then there was that ferocious moment when he barked at the Daleks and they scuttled backwards (I also got a kick out of the Daleks getting so worked up and vibrating "Do not blaspheme! Do not blaspheme!")

That "all for nothing" moment was heartbreaking. Got a little misty.

I loved the "twin" kisses, although I still think that Jack (or JB) is kissing Rose/Billie like a sister and the Doctor/Chris like a lover - it's not in the kiss itself, but the expression on his face.

Started to cry when he faked Rose out and sent her home; the expression on his face was so devastated/devastating. Eccleston has the most expressive face/eyes/body I have seen on any actor. (I think a lot of people who don't like him are actually put off by that nakedness - we're not used to it.)

Was sobbing during the hologram and stopped breathing when he turned to face her. Actually had to pause at the end "have a great life" and get myself back together.

Billie was astonishingly good in that cafe scene. She's astonishingly good throughout. That is a BAFTA-worthy performance; we expect nothing less from Eccleston - Piper was a revelation. And I liked Rose's honest, "No," when Mickey asked if she had anything left behind her. And he still helped.

Jackie's voice breaking when she says that the Doctor did the right thing in sending Rose back, and then her getting the truck from Rodrigo, "He owes me a favour. Never mind why." XD

BadWolf!Rose. It's circular logic, but it works, even if it's not quite as deep as I would have liked (my major niggle with the episode).

The whole TARDIS!Rose thing, the expression on the Doctor's face, and "I want you safe, my Doctor...My head...it hurts..." Okay, the "You need a Doctor," thing was signposted a mile off, but admit it - if we didn't get it, we'd feel cheated.

The kiss wasn't even the best part, but the way he cradles her as she collapses and touches her face is ample evidence that he cares for her.

His goodbye speech, trying to prepare her (and the kiddie audience, too), is brilliantly written and delivered - wonderful, scary moment when he convulses, Rose reaches for him, and he cries, "NO!"

"You were fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. And you know what? ...So was I."

Indeed. The most brilliant introduction of a character, ever - "Run!" and the best exit line. What more could we ask?

Other than more. What we had was not enough, but it was beautifully formed. I almost wish they'd stopped.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

It certainly was a tour-de-force wasn't it?

"I'm the Doctor, and if there's one thing I can do, it's talk," but then there was that ferocious moment when he barked at the Daleks and they scuttled backwards

I think that's one of my favorite moments.

That "all for nothing" moment was heartbreaking. Got a little misty.

It's hard, but I think that was actually one of my fave moments from Chris. No words, you don't even see his face, but you know. You know that's what he's thinking, you know that this is killing him. It is heartbreaking.

loved the "twin" kisses, although I still think that Jack (or JB) is kissing Rose/Billie like a sister and the Doctor/Chris like a lover - it's not in the kiss itself, but the expression on his face.

Could it be that JB is gay so he enjoyed the kiss with Chris more? I dunno, because I see what you do. And even in "Boom Town", it was mostly the Doctor that Jack flirted with. So maybe Jack was being written as in love with the Doctor and infatuated with Rose. Which ever, the kisses were done so well, and I was go glad they were kept in on the SciFi showing. In fact, I didn't like the cut they made because those that didn't see the uncut version probably didn't understand what the Doctor was babbling about before the Delta Wave thing, but I was glad that was cut and not something else, because that was all needed.

Oh, Billie was wonderful. I loved how hard Rose fought to get back to the Doctor, if only to get him out of there. If anyone doubted how Rose felt about him, this episode should have ridded them of that doubt. Billie was spectacular. And Chris. I did read on some board, that while they loved Chris as the Doctor, they were sort of relieved because they didn't know if they could really take that intensity. I could. I love it, Chris is just beautiful in every way as the Doctor, and he's brillant as the Doctor was well, I would have loved to see where the show would go if Nine hadn't died. How changed would he have been? I think it's interesting to think about, even though we have a new Doctor. And while on one end I hate thinking about it, I can't help but think if Chris was still the Doctor, what stories would have been done differently?

And, RTD is a big fact liar. He said in a interview or something that he doesn't right any differently between the 9th Doctor and the 10th. Come on, are you telling me that if Chris was still the Doctor, "New Earth" would have turned out the same? Please.

Indeed. The most brilliant introduction of a character, ever - "Run!" and the best exit line. What more could we ask?

Amen.

(Hope you don't mind my babble!)

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

It's hard, but I think that was actually one of my fave moments from Chris. No words, you don't even see his face, but you know.

I know what you mean. It's funny, he's so rangy and has such a loose, gangly way of moving, you don't think he has that kind of control (same with his big, bony features), but he has remarkably fine, subtle ability to manipulate every single part of him. It's funny, people talk about how skinny David Tennant is, but he seems a reasonable weight for his slender build. Eccleston is very narrow, but he's built to be probably 20-30 pounds heavier than he is - and even though he's gained some weight in the past few years leading up to 40, he's still awfully thin. I think that's one of the reasons he keeps his jacket on most of the time as the Doctor- he doesn't look as big without it, even though it's not noticeably padded. I've noticed a lot of people commenting that he looks "naked" in Father's Day without it.

Could it be that JB is gay so he enjoyed the kiss with Chris more? I dunno, because I see what you do. And even in "Boom Town", it was mostly the Doctor that Jack flirted with. So maybe Jack was being written as in love with the Doctor and infatuated with Rose.

I don't know that it was written one way or the other - it's hard to tell from a script, and we don't know the conversations that went on behind the scenes, but I clearly get the sense that Jack loves Rose as a friend and would happily shag her (as he would any reasonably attractive being - or robot, apparently), but that he's unexpectedly fallen in love with the Doctor. As Jack says, knowing the Doctor made Jack a better person. JB's homosexuality undoubtedly plays to some extent into the amount of chemistry that happens - and I do get the sense he's got a bit of a crush on CE, who tends to have indiscriminate chemistry with most people, including men (have you seen Othello, or even 28 Days Later?) - but that triangulation is part of what makes the three of them work. Rose and Jack are best mates who fancy each other, so they're the solid base of a triangle that focuses on the stronger man they both love. To backtrack a little, I have never felt that Boom Town felt out of sequence, because I felt like that was what they were trying to establish emotionally between the three of them, and for me, it works.

I did read on some board, that while they loved Chris as the Doctor, they were sort of relieved because they didn't know if they could really take that intensity.

I saw that. I thought it was a fascinating response, and plays into the idea that some people are uncomfortable with how "real" he is. I would rather have his 13 episodes than not, but I have a harder time going back to "normal" in S2/28. It's like returning to television after having seen an epic motion picture. CE, BP, and RTD changed the landscape so significantly with S1 that when DT steps in and plays a more "traditional" Doctor, it's jarring, particularly against the emotional reality of BP's Rose. Someone above mentioned that perhaps they shouldn't have made the love story so obvious if they weren't going to follow through, but I think that could/would be saved if they didn't dance around it. Some fans want to have it both ways - he's the "same man" so she must still love him; but if we point out that he behaves differently, it's "the Doctor Who way - personalities change with appearances, so get over it". When people undergo health crises (cancer, heart attack, kidney transplant), or lose a child, their personalities change and couples break up, even if they still love each other as friends. I think regeneration counts as a major health trauma; full body transplant. Why not make that part of the story? Maybe they still will. They're easing the two of them apart, whether intentionally or just because the chemistry is different.

Is RTD writing differently? Well, he's writing sloppier! :-) But yes, there is a difference, and I don't feel like this season coheres in anything like the same way as S1.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I've noticed a lot of people commenting that he looks "naked" in Father's Day without it.

I thought he did. I kept thinking, put the jacket back on. But then, I found pictures of behind the scenes of "Aliens of London" where they were rehearsing scenes and CE didn't have his jacket on and he looked great. So, either it was the sweater (sorry, jumper) he was wearing, or he looked better when he filmed the other episode. I don't know.

CE, who tends to have indiscriminate chemistry with most people, including men (have you seen Othello, or even 28 Days Later?)

I wish. I don't know if I could watch 28 Days Later though, I'm a wuss when it comes to movies like that.

I would rather have his 13 episodes than not, but I have a harder time going back to "normal" in S2/28. It's like returning to television after having seen an epic motion picture.

It does feel like series one isn't even the same series because the feel between the two series is so different. And it probably is the acting and writing. Not that DT is bad, nor is Billie, but because it's so different, it's like you said, jarring. I haven't seen enough of the older Doctors to know if DT is anything like them, but I've felt very comforted by the fact, that in episodes not written by RTD, I do see shades of CE's Doctor. It's probably not intentional on DT's part, but I remember certain scenes in "School Reunion" and "Age of Steel" where I had this flash in my mind because I saw DT as CE, weirdly. While it's comforting to have someone so different from CE, the writing shouldn't change as much as the actor. The quality should still be there.

Yeah, this series does seem all over the place, and unlike last series, it's not just the continuity between episodes, it's how the characters aren't growing episode to episode. The only consistent was Mickey. It's really sad that we can't have that consistent writing with the two main characters. And it's times like that where you really can't blame the actors because they're doing what they are told. Their job.

People say that the actors have the best grasp on their characters and while in ways that's true, usually actors have the least input on their characters, on TV shows. Or is that just in the US. From what I've heard, the actors on Doctor Who don't have that much freedom of input. Or have I heard wrong? It's funny because on two shows I watch, actors input are the complete opposite. On Battlestar Galactica, actors are always changing things. A lot that goes on air is said to have been the actors ideas. And on the show Gilmore Girls, the actors have virtually no input at all. (sorry if you have no clue about either show) I'm just curious as to where Doctor Who falls.

My goodness, maybe I should change my name to Miss Babble Lots.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

So, either it was the sweater (sorry, jumper) he was wearing, or he looked better when he filmed the other episode. I don't know.

All the jumpers are very similar in style, aren't they? Some have deeper V-necks (the black one from BW/POTW) and the green one has a seam down the middle. Anyway, AoL/WWIII is from the first filming block, and his health did suffer quite a lot in the latter stages of filming. On the commentary, Billie Piper says that there was a lot of snot on set in FD, not just from the crying, but everyone had bad colds, and you can see it in his eyes, they look kind of watery - and I noticed last night, you can see his hives/swollen face in Dalek, too! Add in the eczema, and he was obviously not a happy camper. Comparing the jacketless shots in AoL and FD, his neck and chest do look thinner. His shoulders are always narrower than I expect them to be.

I haven't seen enough of the older Doctors to know if DT is anything like them,

I was never able to get much into the older DW, even when trying (when in Rome, as it were, and I was living in England), and they are different shades of eccentric, emotionally immature scholar. So, yes, he is much closer to the trad Doctor, and I can certainly see why old-school fans would prefer DT. But I had the mirror-image response - the Ninth Doctor was one I could feel for, even when he was being an ass. It was ironically both his alienness and his humanity.

I remember certain scenes in "School Reunion" and "Age of Steel" where I had this flash in my mind because I saw DT as CE, weirdly.

I know what you mean. It's the root of my problem, in a way - in those moments where DT calms down and has a little weight to his performance, he's good, he's believable; it's just that at those moments I can't help but think that CE would be much more affecting. (An aside, it's not just an age thing as some people try to argue - DT is 35, and when CE was 28-29, he was still giving those naked-but-dignified performances.)

People say that the actors have the best grasp on their characters and while in ways that's true, usually actors have the least input on their characters, on TV shows. Or is that just in the US.

I think it really varies from show to show. I was just listening to the commentary on the first season of Numb3rs, and there is clearly a kind of give-and-take - David Krumholtz and Judd Hirsch take one scene to an emotional level that the writers/producers/creators weren't expecting and didn't want until they saw the result; OTOH, in another scene, they kept having to stop the scene because DK was crying, and they didn't want it (never mind that his struggling not to cry is one of the best scenes in the entire series). I think it depends on the amount of power the writers have and how good the actors are (ie, can they control these things for character, or are they just wanting to show off); CE is actually fairly notorious for two seemingly contradictory things - respecting the writers very deeply, making his decisions based on the quality of scripts and defending the writers fiercely; and also for confronting writers when he feels like they've missed a scene and making them do it better - I've heard stories like that on several commentaries, and the writers invariably say that he was right (including RTD on Second Coming and Alex Garland/Danny Boyle on 28 Days Later).

What I see in S2 is BP doing a valiant, masterful job of trying to play what's given her, even when it doesn't always make sense, and bless her for that.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I meant to mention "Dalek" when I was talking about CE without his jacket. I remember how everyone was like "Woo hoo, CE without his shirt", I was like "OMG, put his freaking shirt back on!" I didn't pay close attention to his skin in that scene, but the lighting they used and how they strung him up, he looked so skinny and alien in that scene. It was creepy, not sexy.

Billie Piper says that there was a lot of snot on set in FD, not just from the crying, but everyone had bad colds

I could not imagine how crappy that was. I hoped they changed how they filmed the newer series because it couldn't have been just CE that suffered in series one. But the one constant I always noticed, in the confidentials, is that it always looked like it was freezing where they fimled. And it's continued into this season as well. I don't know how they can film like that. Although, the huge parkas they wear between takes seem to help.

The age thing with CE and DT never occured to me. I don't even understand why people would argue with ages. What the hell? These are two very different actors with different approaches and many in the audience have different opinions about what they want to see. I love DT in his quiet moments, one of my faves is from last Saturday's episode, "The Impossible Planet", actually, I think that was my fave DT episode.

I think it really varies from show to show.

You know, as soon as I finished that post, I started thinking that.

I think it depends on the amount of power the writers have and how good the actors are (ie, can they control these things for character, or are they just wanting to show off)

And that's where the two shows I previously brought up come into play. On Gilmore Girls, the lead actress Lauren Graham is fantastic and has absolutely no input on her character when I feel she needs it. On Battlestar Galactica a lot of the actors inputs are perfect but sometimes the writers and producers don't know when to say no, and some the the show IMO suffered because of that.

But CE seems to know what he is doing and I'm sure I would always do what he says, although that's just me. ;)

What I see in S2 is BP doing a valiant, masterful job of trying to play what's given her, even when it doesn't always make sense, and bless her for that.

I see that for BP and DT. Not that I'm saying you are, but others I feel are placing too much blame on DT. Yeah, they are his acting choices, but the director should have done another take if what he did wasn't good enough. I think that's where a lot of my disappointment is coming from. DT may not see that his anger isn't that affecting, but the director and writers should. IMHO.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

Too longwinded for one response!

Come on, are you telling me that if Chris was still the Doctor, "New Earth" would have turned out the same? Please.

There were two moments where I really thought, "This would be different w/CE": the first was the Cassandra!kiss. Instead of that kind of cute/smug "Still got it," I think we would have had a touching moment of surprise and regret, a moment where we could clearly see him thinking, "I wish it was really Rose." (Similarly for The Girl in the Fireplace - I just never bought that relationship, but I've never seen CE not sell a relationship, even when the other party wasn't bringing it. Still, massive problems with the logic of that episode, and I so wanted it to work, because it's a lovely idea.) The other was the escape on the lift cable. I don't think anyone, Rose or Cassandra, would hesitate to jump on an elevator cable with CE, he's just better as an action hero, even though he did much less of it than DT is being asked to do. But then the "everybody lives" ending seems to be a way of saying, "Oh, this is the same guy," yet - like the revisiting of Pete Tyler - seems to cheapen what was achieved before.

(Hope you don't mind my babble!)

I'm the one rattling on in your LJ! I just enjoy talking about it with you. Hope you do, too. If not, I'll shut up, just say so!

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

There were two moments where I really thought, "This would be different w/CE": the first was the Cassandra!kiss.

Oh, most definitely. I kept thinking in my head, how would CE have played that? It would have been different, but always Cassandra!Rose would have played it differently as well. In fact, if we still had CE as the Doctor, we might not have gotten a kiss. It's weird. Because on one hand, it's like, if CE was the Doctor he would have done this, but then if he were the Doctor, we might not have gotten that scene at all. Or maybe I just think like that, and it just takes all the fun out of imagining Rose throwing herself at CE's Doctor. Which I do think would be funny. And hey, maybe CE would have surprised us and played it for a laugh, his Doctor knowing that something was different with Rose.

The other was the escape on the lift cable. I don't think anyone, Rose or Cassandra, would hesitate to jump on an elevator cable with CE

Yeah. I think that scene was written specifically for DT. There is just no way in hell I could see CE's Doctor running and jumping onto that cable. That's where my odd thinking comes into play. Although I agree, nobody would hesitate in jumping CE, I mean jumping on the cable with him. Right.

There is one scene that I thank God DT was there to film. Although I would have loved to see how CE played it, I absolutely adored when Cassandra first went into the Doctor. I loved how he did that. It was so camp, but it got me to laugh. I'm cheap sometimes.

I'm the one rattling on in your LJ! I just enjoy talking about it with you. Hope you do, too. If not, I'll shut up, just say so!

Not a problem at all! It's a pleasure discussing these things with you.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

In fact, if we still had CE as the Doctor, we might not have gotten a kiss. It's weird. Because on one hand, it's like, if CE was the Doctor he would have done this, but then if he were the Doctor, we might not have gotten that scene at all.

I know exactly what you mean. I don't actually like that moment, particularly coming as it does in the first real Ten episode, because it seems to be all about how "cute/foxy" he is, and the implication that somehow this is all better because he's more normatively attractive. Those big ears and "daft" face don't stop CE from being drop-dead sexy, and I do get more of a sense of electricity between CE and BP than DT and BP. Although I think it still could/would have played, just more emotionally than comically.

There is one scene that I thank God DT was there to film. Although I would have loved to see how CE played it, I absolutely adored when Cassandra first went into the Doctor. I loved how he did that. It was so camp, but it got me to laugh.

That was definitely a camp, funny moment - which I like out of context and not so much in context, if you see what I mean. I don't know if they would have written that for Nine. I think CE probably has untapped mincing potential because of his body awareness, but I think it would have been a subtler moment. (He has a moment in Othello where he mimics a woman's voice, and he does it so well that I didn't even notice he wasn't actually talking to a woman the first time I saw it!)

DT's over-the-topness is part of what jars for me, because of what we had with Nine. It's a tough bind! It's as if, on the emotional scale of 1-10, CE plays 1 though 10. DT plays 5-7 and 11. I can enjoy the 11 for what it is, but it pops me out of the moment. Hard to know how much is written/directed/acted, because the writing is certainly all over the place, too.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

the first real Ten episode, because it seems to be all about how "cute/foxy" he is, and the implication that somehow this is all better because he's more normatively attractive.

That really bothered me as well. They never did that with CE, and now they are shoving into our faces that DT is so foxy and cute. I do find DT handsome in some cases, but so is CE. CE was subtle and, like you said, drop-dead sexy, DT is just really really cute. Except for "Tooth and Claw" where he was really hot, in my opinion. That was subtle too, and it might have been the accent, but the light and his clothing definitely helped as well.

The chemistry is muchly different between DT and BP than it was with CE and BP. I do see some chemistry with DT, but what really sets it apart is the relationship. After PoTW, Rose is more possessive and almost protective of the Doctor. Worries more clearly about him, like in "The Impossible Planet" (have you seen that one yet?)

That was what I got from interviews with RTD, but with the series showing, I notice Rose is sort of distancing herself. Maybe not purposely, but her and the Doctor are more often separated. Let me know how much of this series you've seen as I'd hate to spoil. :)

DT's over-the-topness is part of what jars for me, because of what we had with Nine.

And I think that's why everyone is so conflicted with the new Doctor.

But for me, it's the fact that he's so much harder to read. The one constant is that you don't put Rose in danger. Other than that, who knows how he'll react, and I think I loved Nine because he could trick the people he's dealing with into believing one thing, but you (the audience) knew the truth. You never know with Ten.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

*butts in to the coversation*

I don't actually like that moment, particularly coming as it does in the first real Ten episode, because it seems to be all about how "cute/foxy" he is, and the implication that somehow this is all better because he's more normatively attractive.

I hated that about New Eath! How cosy tRose and Ten suddenly were, and using Cassandra to tell us that Rose is really attracted to this new Doctor. The scene at the beginning at Rose beaming over how different the Doctor was, and wtf? It came across almost like Nine had been traded in for a sexier model in Rose's eyes

I was especially disappointed because of how well TCI had handled the change-over.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I'm going to start a new thread to keep this from getting too "skinny"!

Picking up a few things here and there:

I think you're absolutely right on the stocks in The Long Game being at that height to minimize the - what, 8-9 inches height difference between BP and CE? It's just so obvious, he's got his feet so widely spread! *g* But I can't quite figure out why they made the "rack" in Dalek so short. It's tilted back anyway.

Which is funny, because I knew you weren't!

Oh, good!

I remember from a few episodes of his show last fall, he had some pretty pronounced cheekbones that were beautiful, but then they seemed to have disappeared.

Maybe he gained just enough weight to smooth them out. He's fairly fine-boned, so they don't stand out that much. CE's always going to have cheekbones, even if he becomes a butterball. It depends on the strength of the bone structure. I remember when Numb3rs started, people commenting on David Krumholtz's new prettiness, "Wow, who knew being so smart could give you cheekbones!" Actually, I think that was just maturity. His weight fluctuates like a yoyo (in fact, I think he may have some eating disorder issues, or the scrutiny from the network is going to give him some if they don't let up trying to make him skinny when he's just built to be a little rounded, like Billie is), but even when he's chubby, he's got the cheekbones. They just...appeared around 22-23!

*And then meganlynn saw that picture of CE and all thoughts of Jamie left her head*

Haunting photo, isn't it? The eyes are extraordinary. And collarbones?!


I know I'm not crazy in thinking that he is hot and sexy

No. And a lot of it comes from inside, even though the outside is beautiful in a rough-hewn, mountain range kind of way. The first thing I saw him in was Shallow Grave, and he's as nerdy as he could be in that, but there was just something so compelling and magnetic about him, and that performance is astonishing.

Re: Hanky Panky in the TARDIS once Jack shows up:

except for the fact that "Boom Town" is inbetween, and things weren't so easy going because Rose had to look elsewhere for a little extra loving.

I didn't get the impression that she had to. :-) Actually, and not joking, I saw that as throwing Mickey a bone (no pun intended), and it seemed particularly cruel.

Re: Ten/Rose

I'm very torn about their relationship right now. While some scenes people cling to as "shippy", I don't, and some that people don't notice, I think could be seen as more shippy.

I know what you mean. I think sometimes people pay more attention to what's said and/or on the surface than those intangibles. For instance, that big hug in The Satan Pit was a good, friendly hug, but I don't know - it doesn't seem to have the same oomph that the hug in Parting of the Ways or Father's Day did. Not to mention that lost, desperate hug that got cut out of Dalek. But some people will say, "He hung on longer." Well, yes, but the feeling was different. The way Nine leans into her is different, he cradles her more, but he also bends her back a little as if he wants to completely envelope her - or that his hand is just dying to slide down a little further...

Re: Toby's death See, I don't think we as the audience were really able to see if she didn't regret it. There was a lot going on, and I can see that maybe it didn't really hit her yet, and in fact that would have been very in character of her.

I agree, and that's actually what I meant when I said we could have cut down some of the duct-work and given a little more on character. I would like a little acknowledgement that Rose - who gave the Doctor such a hard time about Gwyneth - had to kill Toby, who was just as innocent. They're complementary characters.

So either it was something completely dropped by the writer or something that'll be touched on later or something that we'll never hear of again.

How much you wanna bet never? I'm kind of giving up on continuity anymore. Now, it's true, PotW gave us a great wrap-up last year, but we felt the show building to that point, and I don't get that sense this year.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I'm going to start a new thread to keep this from getting too "skinny"!

Ohhh, good idea!

I think you're absolutely right on the stocks in The Long Game being at that height to minimize the - what, 8-9 inches height difference between BP and CE?

Now I'm curious about BP's real height, because for a while I didn't believe that they put BP's actual height on those flyers in AoL. She seemed taller than that. And it might have been uncomfortable but he looked mighty fine in LG with his legs like that. *g*

Maybe he gained just enough weight to smooth them out. He's fairly fine-boned, so they don't stand out that much. CE's always going to have cheekbones

Which is funny since they put Jamie in a fat suit later in the show. And CE, just thinking about his cheekbones makes me sigh. They're so pretty.

I remember when Numb3rs started, people commenting on David Krumholtz's new prettiness

I...really need to seriously check him out again.

I didn't get the impression that she had to. :-)

The only reason I did was because she didn't even pause to think when he (Mickey) brought it up. Or it could be because I haven't really jumped on the Doctor/Rose/Jack OT3 bandwagon. Not yet at least. I don't know why.

The way Nine leans into her is different, he cradles her more, but he also bends her back a little as if he wants to completely envelope her - or that his hand is just dying to slide down a little further...

That last one, YES. I actually think it's just how different the two men hug (CE and DT). And when I think about it that way, I wouldn't mind receiving a hug from CE.

But about people saying that the Doctor held on longer in TSP, well DUH. Thinking that each other were dead, I think I would hold on a while. All shipping aside, these two care about each other tremendously, and yeah, love each other, so I think the fact that Rose believing that the Doctor had fallen into the pit, and the Doctor, who even though believed in Rose, probably knew that she would die anyway because of the gravity field giving out. I mean, if he hadn't found the TARDIS, or had the TARDIS not found him, they both would have been goners. So, the hug can be looked at from any side logically.

How much you wanna bet never? I'm kind of giving up on continuity anymore.

I wanna bet all of it. This season has really sucked on everything connecting. Even the last season, with things seeming random, they still seemed to be connected and were smooth transitions.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

Now I'm curious about BP's real height, because for a while I didn't believe that they put BP's actual height on those flyers in AoL. She seemed taller than that.

That seemed about right for me. She's fairly petite. And CE isn't quite as tall as he looks - I would have thought him 6'2" or 6'3" going on proportion, but he's just around 6'.

And it might have been uncomfortable but he looked mighty fine in LG with his legs like that. *g*

Well, there is that...

I...really need to seriously check him out again.

See icon.

I haven't really jumped on the Doctor/Rose/Jack OT3 bandwagon. Not yet at least. I don't know why.

I'm completely surprised that it seems absolutely solid to me. I let chemistry lead me wherever it seems to go, whatever the combination, and other than a wee bit of Mulder/Scully/Skinner (which was frankly AU), I never thought I'd see three people who seemed to balance in a relationship. Rose/Nine are still the primary pairing, but I can see them welcoming Jack.

All shipping aside, these two care about each other tremendously, and yeah, love each other

Yes - and in TSP, once they meet up again, they're safe. The most obvious comparison in Nine's time is PoTW, and although he gives her that fierce hug, he has to slip away and do more work. You can see in Rose's face and the way her hand lingers on his jacket lapel that she wants more.

Are you going to do a post on IP/SP? Definitely the best episode(s) of the new season even if the Doctor/DT's performance is my least favourite part of it. It was a really strong ensemble show, and I love Claire Rushbrook (Ida). Yet one more strong, mature woman. And I think Ten is better with those characters, quite honestly. I'm not the only person to have noticed that!

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

See icon.

He's...grown most. Oh my.

You can see in Rose's face and the way her hand lingers on his jacket lapel that she wants more.

That kills me everytime. It's like every pretense that she could have had about keeping a sort of distance from him has disappeared. It's beautiful and hurts because he doesn't have the time to wrap his head around it. Oh, Nine/Rose. They were just utter perfection.

Are you going to do a post on IP/SP? Definitely the best episode(s) of the new season even if the Doctor/DT's performance is my least favourite part of it.

I might not be able to do that until Thursday, but I most definitely plan on doing a post. If I don't do it Thursday, then it won't be up for a while because I'm moving with my parents into a new place, starting Friday. I definitely think they were the strongest episodes yet, and I actually liked the Doctor quite a bit, except for a few certain bits, but that wasn't DT's fault, in my opinion. There's no episode without a minor problem, even the one's we love so. But, I hope to post it soon. Thanks for reminding me!

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

That kills me everytime. It's like every pretense that she could have had about keeping a sort of distance from him has disappeared. It's beautiful and hurts because he doesn't have the time to wrap his head around it. Oh, Nine/Rose. They were just utter perfection.

They really were. I really don't know that I've ever seen any fictional couple with the kind of charge that they held. And it really shouldn't have worked like that, either the characters or the actors, but then, magic happens occasionally.

and even more!

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I think my problem is I listen to others opinions (not that that's a bad thing) and let them influence all my own thoughts, like I'm scared to have my own, which I'm really not.

Sometimes, people can point out things that you've missed. Sometimes they're just "what?!" For instance,

We were talking about all these moments: I can't help but compare to him kissing Gwyneth's forehead, or caressing the pig mermaid, or folding the PM's arms when he stacked him in the cupboard.

and comparing them to

I think Ten's little "I'm sorry" are another way of showing how distant he's become, it definitely fits in with his character though.

I agree. And yet I just saw someone who, on the basis of having seen only Ten and PotW post a discussion in which she decided that Ten was more interested in people than Nine was and that he was more interested in saving people in the long run because he was willing to sacrifice people whereas Nine stepped back and chose to be a coward rather than wipe out everyone.

First of all, how arrogant to make that assumption on one episode. As we've pointed out, there are many, many moments that would contradict her assertion. But even within that episode, she's missing the point that he made that decision once before (or Eight did), and it was all for nothing. He'd killed everyone before to save the universe, and it hadn't worked! He learned his lesson. Whereas Ten seems much more reckless and those pale, mechanical "I'm sorry"s of his are far more "uncaring", IMO.

Re: and even more!

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

How weird to compare two Doctors after only seeing one episode of one, and more than a handful of the other. That's rude!

Ten was more interested in people than Nine was and that he was more interested in saving people in the long run because he was willing to sacrifice people

Yeah, I take back the rude comment and replace it with ignorant. With both these Doctors, you can't take one episode and decide, "That's how he is". It really doesn't work that way. But, sometimes I can't help but notice similar patterns with both Doctors.

In "Dalek", the Doctor wanted everyone to have guns and to get out there and kill this one creature. In "The Doctor Dances", he's desperate to find a cure for everyone.

In "New Earth", the Doctor wanted to cure and save all those people. In "Tooth and Claw", he let people fight alone against the wolf.

It's a matter of circumstance for both Doctors. And in my personal view, what stands out to me is that Nine actually seemed more patient with people than Ten does. Even with humans, when he could rant about apes and such, he still had the patience to talk to them, explain and such (except for Jackie, which no-one can really blame him for). With Ten, he seems to sometimes get exasperated to easily when someone won't tell him something immediately. I noticed it quite heavily in NE and TC.

Why is it I can analyze a TV show and not poetry? It's easier sometimes.

OMG, I don't have a hand!porn icon! Your icon just reminded me of that.

Re: and even more!

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

How weird to compare two Doctors after only seeing one episode of one, and more than a handful of the other. That's rude!

And, as you say, ignorant. I know it's her own LJ and she has a right to say what she wants on that, but when she links it to a general community and only people who agree with her bother to comment, it's kind of ... distasteful.

In "Dalek", the Doctor wanted everyone to have guns and to get out there and kill this one creature. In "The Doctor Dances", he's desperate to find a cure for everyone.

In "New Earth", the Doctor wanted to cure and save all those people. In "Tooth and Claw", he let people fight alone against the wolf.

That's true, although I'd argue there's more coherence with Dalek/Doctor Dances than NE/TC: in Dalek, he's terrified by the Dalek and he knows what kind of threat it poses. He wants to make sure that the Dalek is taken out before everyone dies. So in both cases, he's out for the greater good (and even the personal good in the case of DD, although it's the key to the puzzle, I think he sees what it's costing Nancy to deny her little boy - the same way David Tennant is with older women, btw, Christopher Eccleston seems to be with very young women; in Hearts and Minds his totally non-sexual relationship with his student Sahira is heartbreaking).

But I agree, I think that Nine's frustration with the "stupid apes" is just a bluster to cover how much he loves humans - I love that moment in AoL when he has to "escape" the flat because it's gotten "a little too human" in there, but then he's so elated because just this morning they were "little and tiny and made of clay - now you can expand!" Ten, OTOH, tends to say he loves humanity, but then gets frustrated even when humanity is trying to help but fails. Notice that often the "stupid ape" comment isn't about human beings not being able to comprehend so much as doing something that anyone with a lick of sense would realize is stupid!

On a weird note, it's a chemistry thing again, but even though Ten puts up with Jackie and she likes him and all, I get a real charge out of the Nine & Jackie scenes - I have a feeling that the actors really liked each other.

Why is it I can analyze a TV show and not poetry? It's easier sometimes.

It's because we "speak" TV show much more fluently than poetry. We are more familiar with its structures and intricacies.

The Hand!Porn icon is by martoufmarty and I just got it a few days ago, so it should be near the top of the LJ. I also want one of that brilliant still in Father's Day just before they're about to clasp hands when their thumbs line up. Just beautiful. (Another thing notably missing from this year - I dunno, even when they're holding hands, it doesn't seem to carry the same weight.)

And another recent DK icon.

Re: and even more!

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

That's true, although I'd argue there's more coherence with Dalek/Doctor Dances than NE/TC: in Dalek, he's terrified by the Dalek and he knows what kind of threat it poses.

Yeah, you think about the similar things I pointed out, and the situations were almost completely different. Although, it's a very similar thing between the Dalek and the werewolf, they both pose tremendous threats, one more personal than the other, but no less dangerous. But you are right about NE and TDD.

I love that moment in AoL when he has to "escape" the flat because it's gotten "a little too human" in there, but then he's so elated because just this morning they were "little and tiny and made of clay - now you can expand!"

Aw, he was so adorkable when he gushed like that. It's times like that that you feel he views the humans as charges that he's supposed to look after and when they solve a puzzle on their own or achieve anything on their own he's just immensely proud. It was a great moment and spoke very highly of what Nine felt about humanity.

Ten, OTOH, tends to say he loves humanity, but then gets frustrated even when humanity is trying to help but fails.

*claps* Because that's exactly how he comes across sometimes. He sees humanity as a toodler trying to walk and continually falling over and he's disappointed. He expects better when he shouldn't have any expectations at all.

Am I making sense? Are my analogies matching up? I'm not so good with them, so I hope I'm not confusing.

The Hand!Porn icon is by martoufmarty and I just got it a few days ago, so it should be near the top of the LJ.

I just snagged two icons from there! One from Battlestar Galactica and the other is of Captain Jack pulling his gun out of "nowhere".

Re: and even more!

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

Am I making sense? Are my analogies matching up?

I think so - the way we're developing it here, I think we both see the Doctor as treating humanity as a small child, but Nine tends to express his joy when the child "gets it right", and Ten seems to kind of ignore the kid. Nine does use that "stupid ape" expression, but he's usually right in the sense that people are behaving stupidly (even for humans!). If Ten doesn't get immediate gratification, his attention starts to wander and he snaps distractedly.

That's really a common thread in both the personalities - Nine, for all his damage, is engaged and wants to participate; Ten is more the scientist with the microscope and while not exactly beneath his notice, others (other than Rose, and not necessarily in a good way) are not on his level. He's very "superior"; Nine was just "impressive".

They aren't complete opposites, but there is a real difference in the amount of engagement. Interestingly, as I've thought about this, I think Nine - even though he didn't spout off about it as much - was more excited about experiencing things; Ten seems to be more excited about watching/seeing things. Of course, Nine was also a semi-suicidal danger junkie; Ten isn't suicidal anymore, but I think he's...not exactly repressed, just kind of disconnected.