Doctor Who

[meganlynn09]

Warning!:  Doctor Who post up ahead.  OPINIONS ARE ALL MY OWN.

Okay, I only started to watch the show in March of this year.  It started on SciFi, and I saw commercials for it while watching the new Battlestar Galactica.  This British hit was going to start when BSG's run was over, so I thought I would check it out.

I was in love within 2 episodes.  I was in love with the 9th Doctor within 3 episodes.  I liked this somewhat dark, angsty alien, and Christopher Eccleston was fantastic, to steal a catchphrase.  Of course, episodes 4 and 5 were a bit of a letdown, but it picked up immediately, and I'll admit, that while I liked Doctor/Rose, it was all about the Doctor for me.  (Read my journal, you'll find out pretty fast how true that is)

As a huge fan of the new Battlestar Galactica, of course I would like the dark moments, like the at the end of "The End of the World" when the Doctor lets Cassandra die, or when the Doctor wanted to kill the lone Dalek.  Okay, it's not the killing I enjoy, it's the fact that not everything is shiny shiny joy joy.  And I'm not saying the newer season of Doctor Who is like that, but I liked my Doctor like that.

Of course, I came into the series with the knowledge that CE was only on for the first season.  But I became attached very fast, and wasn't looking forward to David Tennant in his place, since I only remembered him as the creepy guy from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.  So, here I put my thoughts down as to why I prefer the Ninth Doctor to the Tenth Doctor.  Although, after writing this, I realized, I really like the Tenth Doctor, he's adorkable.  But still second to my Doctor.

I apologize for language, and if I come across as harsh.

David Tennant as the Doctor.

I didn't exactly hate DT as the Doctor.  He had some wonderful moments, granted they required him to be a bit quiet, but he had plenty of those moments.  I expected him to be different from the Ninth, I would have been disappointed if he acted like CE's Doctor.

Some of the hyper activity that DT put into his Doctor was enjoyable, he has an adorable smile, and he was really a hard man to not like.

My favorite episode of his was definitely "School Reunion", just because "Girl in the Fireplace", in my opinion, dropped the ball with the romance.  It was extremely shallow, and I just couldn't buy into it, which is disappointing since I had been looking forward to that episode for a while, since I heard about it.

I also very much enjoyed him in "Army of Ghosts" as well.  I still can't decide on "Doomsday", although DT earned extra acting stars on that one.

Ten/Rose-DT and Billie Piper

They were annoying lots of the time.  I'm sorry, maybe I'm not a proper shipper, but they really grated on my nerves and I only really liked them, couple-wise, in "School Reunion", "The Impossible Planet" and "Army of Ghosts", and "Fear Her" until Rose put her foot in her mouth at the end, bless her.  It's not because I preferred the Ninth Doctor, it's how they were written.  IMHO, this season was not written to the same standard that the first season was.  I hated being TOLD how close and in love the Doctor and Rose were, instead of SEEING how close they were, even though season one had it's clunky moments.

Nine/Rose-CE and BP

I am a shipper.  Don't misunderstand me, when they are done right, and this includes 9/Rose and 10/Rose, I can be freakishly shippy, and I bawled my eyes out at the end of "Doomsday", which I won't share my problems with.

I...do have problems with the ship though.  And that starts with the term "soulmates".  Huge problem with that.  Maybe it's personal, maybe it's my own problem, but I don't like it.  But mostly it's the fact that this Time Lord's soul mate is a human who's life span is barely a fraction of his life.  And this has nothing to do with Rose, I just have to disagree with calling the Doctor and Rose soulmates, in any shape or form.  And this also brings in the age gap. 

First of all, PLEASE DO NOT ARGUE THAT 9/ROSE WAS WRONG AND 10/ROSE IS OKAY.  This bugs the fucking hell out of me.  If you want to be technical, 10 is older than 9, appearances don't matter.  And when I really think about the age gap, the 900+ years old/19 years old is disturbing as all hell and makes me wonder sometimes what RTD is smoking.  Which is why I like 9/Rose, because usually it was ambiguous, you couldn't tell if they were just friends, or lovers, you just knew that it they didn't care, they just cared about each other.  As I said to nina_ds, "because they didn't JUST flirt, they teased each other and it wasn't always in the most romantic way, which is why I loved their relationship, because it really was ambiguous. Anyone could read it in any way. Friends, lovers, friends with benefits, it didn't matter because the Doctor and Rose didn't care, they were traveling together, they were happy, they cared about each other, they didn't need to define it."

There are 11 years between DT and BP, and 18 years between CE and BP, it could have been worse.  But the actors are not portraying their actual ages, so get over that little fact.

With 10/Rose, you didn't really have the choice to think they weren't some couple, sure there were episodes like "School Reunion" and "Girl in the Fireplace" where we see that Rose isn't always the center of the Doctor's attention, but otherwise, she was and it was grating.  

The man is adorable and geeky and just has this absolutely infectious personality.  It's not the case of disliking a character because of the actor, no, I love the actor, and it's just how the Doctor has sometimes behaved, while David has portrayed him, that I don't like.  Of course there were times I wanted to slap CE's Doctor, but not very often at all.

And I am by no means comparing the two actors.  They are both brillant in their own respects.  They both bring something different.  Maybe some people feel that CE's the better actor.  I feel that he was very intense, and with a show like Doctor Who, maybe people felt uncomfortable with that, but I didn't.  

With David, he brings this childlike joy and personality that fits perfectly for a man or alien just starting to except what the Ninth Doctor went through.  The Ninth Doctor went  through the depression stage, and the Tenth Doctor hit that stage where it hit him, he's all alone where the Ninth Doctor could only think, they're all gone, which are actually two very different things.  

But my point is, David Tennant is a delight and I think his Doctor will be much better next season and I can't wait until it starts.

Christopher Eccleston as the Doctor.

I really can't put into words how much I appreciated CE's Doctor.  There was something about him that made one want to take a step back and hug him at the same time.  Somebody once described CE as not being a very charming guy, but as the Doctor, I found him very charming, when he wanted to be.  I thought he was very charming when he was flirting with Lynda (although sort of cheesy) in "Bad Wolf".  Dude, he flirted with a tree!  And the tree lady, who was the awesome Jabe, flirted back, so he was doing something right.

He didn't do domestic, but the way he was with kids was cute, like when he was fighting over the remote with the little one in "Aliens of London", but he pulled the kid up onto the chair with him.  He wasn't annoyed that the child was there, just that it was interrupting watching the alien crash landing on the television.  And "The Empty Child", which is fighting to be my favorite for season one, although "The End of the World" is still number one.

And this new Doctor Who, not only introduced this whole new show with a 40 year background, but a new actor.  I've never heard of CE before this and I am sorry I didn't.  I even watched "28 Days Later" because he was in it, of course it was on the TV, which is as close I'll get to watching it as I could.

1)  "I could save the world but lose you."  In "World War III".  Yeah, it still bothers me.  Too soon, and I'm sorry but you cannot put somebody's life before the world.  Although, that could just be his saying out loud why he was looking for other ways to defeat the Slitheen, but the idea that he was putting her life first bothered me.

2)  The "she's mine" look at the end of "The Doctor Dances".  That seemed a little redundant when, if you watch, it really was Rose that jumped up to dance with the Doctor, she really didn't need that much persuation to dance with him instead of Jack.  It's minor, but it's there.

Somebody explain to me the manipulation in WWIII, because it doesn't seem that obvious to me.  Yes, he's using what he knows she likes about the traveling to get her to come with, but she's not so stupid that she doesn't know.  It would have been easy for her to say no, especially when her mom pleads with her not to go.  So, it's not like this huge OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE HE FUCKING DID THAT moment, I dunno, maybe I'm missing something.

I like the Tenth Doctor, he grows on you and when DT really got into the role, he was excellant.  And when he wasn't shouty, I adored him. Okay, so he's not my Doctor, and he's not #1, but he's #2, followed by the Fifth Doctor (the only other I've seen).  I think the writers were a bit weak this season, overemphasizing the Doctor and Rose's relationship, because Rose was leaving, but now we'll get to see the Doctor differently, he'll be alone in the Christmas special, dealing with a bride that mysteriously showed up in his TARDIS.

I can't wait to meet the new companion, Martha.  But, yeah I'm really going to miss Rose.  I loved her, good moments and...not so good moments.  But, I get it, companions and actors move on and we as fans have to as well.  That doesn't mean I can't watch the episodes with her as often as I want. 

Now I see why people are complaining, old schoolers at least, about "School Reunion".  I just watched the goodbye between Sarah Jane and the Fourth Doctor on YouTube, and she WALKED AWAY WHISTLING.  Maybe somewhere in the back of her head she thought he might come back, but SHE WALKED AWAY WHISTLING and laughed that he didn't land her in Croyden.  And he didn't dump her.  What the fuck, writers?  Why did you have to taint my favorite season 2 episode?

Wow, that post came off the top of my head.  I...have to do something else.  Agree or disagree?  Don't hesitate to let me know.

Comments

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

Great post. Soooo much to respond to, but I'll try! :-)

Nine/Rose is one of the most extraordinary, broad-ranging, emotionally engaging relationships I've ever seen depicted in fiction. They didn't have to tell us what they meant to each other; they showed us: when Rose asks him to take her to be with her father when he dies, both times; his anger when she disobeys him; his annoyance at her picking up the pretty boys, etc. No one says he knows that Pete has to die to fix everything, we can just infer it from his performance. Much more subtle. And beyond being a cutesy couple, which I'm afraid 10/Rose comes off as, I don't buy it emotionally, although Billie Piper is a star for doing as well as she did. What does Ten actually do that wins her? She was won with Nine; Ten is awfully cocksure about the whole thing and coasting on that relationship. I feel a lot of the emotion in S2 is unearned in that way.

As you know, I agree with you about the infuriating stupidity of the "9 is too old for her, 10 is much better!" argument. A similar one that really makes me want to hurl is the idea that 9 made himself "cuter" in his regeneration as some sort of reward for Rose - which would make her far more shallow than she ever showed herself to be. Then, I also find 10 less attractive emotionally as well as physically, so the relationship grates most of the time. And underneath it all is this little sense that all of his smugness and arrogance can be excused because he's CUUUUUUUTE, and that really rankles. This has less to do with DT, although he can certainly get on my last nerve when he's being shouty and hyper, and more to do with the writing and the commentary surrounding the show.

I also do not understand those who still want to insist on the Doctor's asexuality. One does not cast Christopher Eccleston if one does not want sexy. He can do that in the most unexpected and even inappropriate of places (he even has sexy moments in Let Him Have It, which is uncomfortable, but real).

WWIII, I've touched on it before, because although I agree that saying "I could save the world but lose you" is a bit early, except for the fact that the actors completely sell it. I also am not of the OMG! he manipulated her! camp regarding the phone call. That kind of manipulation goes on all the time! "C'mon, let's go down to the pub! You can do the dishes/homework/housework later." I see it less as him making her choose between him and her mother (I think he would have waited for her to stay for tea), but he didn't want to have to. And if the menu was shepherd's pie and amaretto, he was quite right!

That look at Jack the end of TDD: I actually have a slightly different read on that; I see less warning off and more "How 'bout it, big boy?" A kind of combination "You can't top this," and " You wanna dance with me? Think you can handle it?"

I'm hoping that they'll go for a lighter, less frantic tone for S3. BP was hired because of her chemistry with CE, a quite unconventional doctor. DT was cast because he was traditionally more "doctory". There was a clash there, and I never got comfortable with it. I think starting over will be a Good Thing.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I think "Father's Day" was damn near a perfect piece of television in terms of showing a relationship between two people (becuase Lord knows the science in Doctor Who will never be perfect).

See, maybe the problem is with 10/Rose, is that with 9/Rose, that relationship was building and building and we're supposed to believe, with 10/Rose, that it's established. Except, it's pushed too hard for us to except it and seems invalid.

A similar one that really makes me want to hurl is the idea that 9 made himself "cuter" in his regeneration as some sort of reward for Rose

How the hell is regenerating a "reward" for Rose? It hurt like hell, as we saw in "The Christmas Invasion". I mean, I can actually understand why people might like 10/Rose instead of 9/Rose, even though I might not like it, but it bugs me when their reasons are similar to that one.

One does not cast Christopher Eccleston if one does not want sexy.

I'm a believer in that! ;)

Re: The end of WWIII, I really do think people make it worse than it is. Should he have done it, probably not, but he did and like you said, it is like "Oh, you can do that later". For all he knew, Rose would have just seen that one event and asked to come back home! It wasn't some vast manipulation, like "Come with me or I'll be lost on my own."

I'm hoping that they'll go for a lighter, less frantic tone for S3.

Me too, here's to hoping! I'm thinking RTD should get off the foreshadowing train and just do what he wants and if one of the actors leave, let it happen naturally, not force all these little hints that they're going to die or leave. Maybe that's why I love season one, you never once thought (if you didn't know CE was leaving) the Doctor would die, and it was beautiful and a natural way to say goodbye.

Although, I'm really getting annoyed with people who don't like that CE came on for one season, that he just did it to look good on his resume or something. He never agreed for more than one season, only signed for one, and hearing about how worked he was and how sick he got, I don't blame him for not continuing.

[boji.livejournal.com]

He never agreed for more than one season, only signed for one, and hearing about how worked he was and how sick he got, I don't blame him for not continuing.

There have been brief comments about 14+ hours days on the shoot, his excema acting up and psoriasis kicking in, but although I looked I could never find validation or details. And I wondered if his vision of The Doctor (as darker and more complex) clashed with RTD's and if that was why he only did a season. Where did you read about his health being taxed?

Hope you don't mind me asking.

B.

[autographedcat.livejournal.com]

I think the key to the Doctor/Rose relationship, in the end, is to recognize that it's an unbalanced one. I don't mean that in the sense of crazy, but simply this: Rose is deeply in love with the Doctor. To her, he *is* her soulmate, the one true love that completes her.

The Doctor does love her, in his way, but its not the way she loves him. He's fond of her. He will protect her, with his own life if necessary. He wants to show her the universe, to let her grow into her potential, and become more than she ever dreamed she could be.

There's a word for that kind of relationship. I think that word is paternal. And of course, Rose has *huge* father-issues, which plays into things.

Nine was a walking wounded refugee, with a giant hole inside him that Rose helped to fill -- her reactions to the wonders he showed her let him see that wonder again. One of my favourite moments in Season 27 is in Boomtown, with the crew goofing around, and you see that the Doctor is starting to rediscover joy. In POTW, he manages to redeem his past failure, refusing to sacrifice Earth the way he sacrified Gallifrey.

Which brings us to Ten, who isn't as wounded as Nine was, and who has less need for what Rose brought him before. There are huge hints this season that while he's not growing apart from her, precisely, he's definately not got the same kind of feelings for Rose as she increasingly has for him.

Just rambling.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

It did seem like it was unbalanced, which is why even though I like them together, I still had reservations.

Your last two paragraphs about Nine and then Ten just sort of nail everything I feel.

Thanks for that.

[neohippie.livejournal.com]

That's a really good post. You expressed really well what I also think about the chemistry between the Ninth Doctor and Rose compared to the Tenth Doctor and Rose. She was really a character made for Nine, and then when Ten came along, it just didn't feel as right. I'm looking forward to seeing how the Tenth Doctor gets along with the new companion.

So I don't really have much to add except what you said at the end about Sarah Jane. The Fourth Doctor to me is like the Fifth to you, I bet, the main old Doctor I've seen a lot of (although I think he might be my favorite by now). You should see some of his episodes with Sarah Jane. They were very nice together.

I'm not sure how much of the leaving scene was on YouTube, but she ends up throwing a fit about how much she hates this life and threatens to leave. But then when the Doctor finds out he HAS TO leave her for her own good, she has second thoughts now that she doesn't have a choice (I think she really says "I was only joking" or something). You could tell Sarah mostly liked being with the Doctor, but it wasn't anything like Rose's "I'm never going to leave you ever" attitude. In fact, throughout her run, Sarah asked several times to go home, and the Doctor always manipulated her into staying some way (a lot like how Nine did with Rose at the end of WWIII, actually). She waffled about that a lot.

Well, I'm digressing. The point is, I liked "School Reunion" because I liked seeing Sarah back, but the parallels people draw between Sarah and Rose and their relationships with the Doctor seem to be mostly from people who don't know Sarah that well.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Thank you very much!

And actually, the clip on YouTube showed all that, and she did say she was joking. It did seem that when the choice to leave was taken away by the Doctor, she faced up the fact that she didn't want to leave. But it's the fact that it didn't really seem like he ditched her and then "School Reunion" seemed like he did. And I can understand why some people didn't like that.

Thank you again for your comment!

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Thank you very much! I'll be sure to do that.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Really interesting post, thanks!

I liked Ten the most in GITF and SR. I love the angst and character development. And I've also really enjoyed him in the final two-parter.

DT grows on me when he does his more subtle work. Just his look at seeing Rose and Jackie reunite at the end of the Cyberman two-parter, and I warm to him. The long rambling (and I find condescending speeches) on humanity are when I like him least. Or when he goes for anger, but instead of scary and intense, it was coming across like a little boy shouting. Well actually, my least favourite episode for Ten is The Idiot's Lantern with all of the yelling. I actually sniggered when he started running off at the mouth with "now listen to me", and got punched. Very bad I know :P

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Thanks for taking the time to read and comment!

DT grows on me when he does his more subtle work.

Most definitely. I was so surprised with some of his scenes in SR because I just completely bought into his performance. And yeah, even with my problems with GiTF, I liked his performance there. Count me in on laughing when he was punched in The Idiot's Lantern, he just went down so fast!

[irreparable.livejournal.com]

Here via Who Daily.

Somebody explain to me the manipulation in WWIII, because it doesn't seem that obvious to me. Yes, he's using what he knows she likes about the traveling to get her to come with, but she's not so stupid that she doesn't know. It would have been easy for her to say no, especially when her mom pleads with her not to go. So, it's not like this huge OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE HE FUCKING DID THAT moment, I dunno, maybe I'm missing something.

OH MY GOD WORD. WORDY MCFUCKING WORD. So many times I see people say that Nine was manipulative and I have to wonder what show they were watching, because he is in no way the evol manipulative bastardo that some fen would like us to believe he is. If anything, it's *Rose* who is the manipulative one of the two, primary exhibit being 'Father's Day.' And then taking along Adam on their travels. Argh! Nine needed someone to anchor him to the good things about being alive, and Rose had the vivacity and joie de vie to do exactly that. He didn't need her in the sense of 'omg twue wuv' or soulmates, etc. I can believe he loved her in his own way, but that it is as alien in his expression of it as the Doctor himself is as alien to humanity.

Ten/Rose, however, makes me want to grind my teeth. And I like DT a lot, I do. Like you, Nine is my Doctor, I've loved CE as an actor for years and years, so seeing him play the Doctor was like a dream come true. DT is a wonderful actor, but it's definitely something about the writing that has taken away a lot of the Doctor's individuality to replace it with the idea that he cannot function without Rose. And I just don't buy into that. He's a 900+ yo alien, he's been around for a very long time, he's not going to fall to pieces because a companion goes. Sure, he loves her, and, I think, more than Nine ever did, and more romantically. (That's another arguement I can't wrap my head around - that Ten/Rose is somehow less about the love than Nine/Rose, again I have to wonder wtf show these people are watching, because seriously, Ten/Rose is as lovey dovey as it can possibly get.) I like Ten, and I look forward to seeing the next season, because I think it will be infinitely better because of the entirely different dynamic, but Nine is definitely my Doctor and, IMNSHO, the better of the two.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your comment!

I can believe he loved her in his own way, but that it is as alien in his expression of it as the Doctor himself is as alien to humanity.

I can definitely get behind that.

but Nine is definitely my Doctor and, IMNSHO, the better of the two.

I can agree with that, but only to an extent.

Thank you again for commenting!

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I saw a discussion recently, which was calling Nine possessive and manipulative, but half of the reasoning didn't even make sense. Apparently the Doctor couldn't tolerate any other men, and Mickey and Adam were only invited along to please Rose, which was creepy and treating men like Rose's pets. Except for how the Doctor asked Mickey himself as a thank you for saving the world, and when Rose later prompted Nine to invite Mickey, he covers up for Mickey not being brave enough to come. The Doctor wasn't keen on Adam granted, but then there was Captain Jack invited to the Tardis after his heroic moment, and if anything I found Nine friendlier to Mickey than the smug clique that Rose and Ten were in the Cyberman episodes

I'm happy enough to examine a characters flaws, but do we really need to make moments up? I mean yeah he wasn't the friendliest to Adam, but that's one example towards a male, and Adam was a git anyway, and left Rose to the Dalek. Nine generally gave man or woman a chance if they showed a bit of bravery, and proved themselves to him. He invited Rose to travel with him because she saved his life. If anything we can say he had impossibly high standards, and was a bit quick to judge. But I fail to see how all of his decisions with companioms in season 1, somehow led back to Rose and jealousy

I also saw a theory that Nine deliberately set Adam up to look awful, so that he can dump him and compliment Rose. When I think that Adam did a good enough job of that all by himself. The Doctor only took him to see the far-off places he claimed to want to se, it was Adam's choice to store that information to benefit himself. I certainly never felt the Doctor was setting him up to fail *shrug* If anything Adam could have put the world at real risk, and that's not something the Doctor would encourage to prove a point. IMO

[silverrose.livejournal.com]

Wow-- way too much to respond to, especially with all the comments. I just wanted to say that you expressed my feelings about the two Doctors and their relationships with Rose to a tee, I agree with you completely on almost every point.

"I could save the world but lose you." In "World War III". Yeah, it still bothers me. Too soon, and I'm sorry but you cannot put somebody's life before the world.

Ah, but you're thinking like we humans do, of THE world-- earth is just another of a zillion inhabited planets in a great big Universe. Changes your perspective on what's important. Like if your house is on fire and you have the choice between (somehow- the analogy isn't really right) saving your family photographs and your journals- or whatever's important to you-- or saving everything BUT them. It's a choice that will make you think.

The Doctor has no control over how he regenerates looking- so the idea that he made himself "better" for Rose is pure fanwank and I refuse to even discuss it with those people. Ridiculous.

Oh, and thank gods I'm not the only one who didn't like The Girl in the Firelace and loved The Empty Child and The End of the World the best!!
*heading over to your profile to see what else we have in common*

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

It's always nice to find somebody in a fandom like this that shares the same thoughts. Sometimes it feels like you're just standing there alone, so thank you for commenting!

Oh, and thank gods I'm not the only one who didn't like The Girl in the Firelace and loved The Empty Child and The End of the World the best!!

Oh yay! I also have to add "Rose" to that list because I just rewatched it and it just has this special place in my heart.

*reminded that I probably need to update my profile*

[ed-zeppelin.livejournal.com]

Tennant might really be my least favourite Doctor - he's a good actor, but his character has no charisma and veers between "I'm really happy and zany, yippee!" and "I'm ANGRY NOW!" which he can't do credibly, in my opinion.

Tennant plays a bad character. Colin Baker played a bad Doctor but he was still the Doctor.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I've yet to see many of the other Doctors, so I really can't say if he's my least favorite, but I see your POV.

[mitchellxl5.livejournal.com]

I love 9 in much the same way you do and I would highly suggest you see Eccleston and Davies' two part series "The Second Coming" which really laid the groundwork for the first new season - angsty messiah loner trying to save the world. It's excllent and offers at least a little extra if you are missing Eccleston.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you for the rec, that'll be one for me to definitely check out!

Rose, 10 and the halo effect (an alternative POV), part one

[vampadvocate.livejournal.com]

Forgive me if I get my facts about Who mythos wrong here and feel feel to correct me on factual errors but I feel the need to float theories even if they sink.

First the safe bit - poor CE I didn't realise that Dr Who was making him ill. One of my mates has skin problems and it isn't fun. I never resented CE for skipping out on Who and I think that he did an enormous favour lending his rep and acting skills to the project - I think he may have persuaded a few people to watch who might otherwise never have bothered. I was certainly influenced postively to check it out. He might have done himself a few favours if he'd told people rather than take the rap for being fickle. I feel CE took the job originally out of respect for RTD's writing skills and may have found the Who fandom aspect a bit much to cope with as well as the gruelling work schedule.

Ok now the contentious bit - I don't think the doctor controls how he regens but I think his subconscious does influence what he looks like. 1st doc regens into 2nd doc around fashionable 60's Polly and ends up the Beatle hair. Third doc looks older after being forcibly re-gened. 4th doc's big brown eyes and dark hair echo SJ's. 5th doc's fair-haired, open faced "angelic" appearence seems in keeping with his angelic visitation style re-gen, 6th appearence with face on old nemesis (Colin Baker played a villian of the 5th doc before becoming the 6th) reflects his agonised re-gen and subsequent contempt for 5th's character. The 7th had been on his own when he re-gened into the 8 - maybe he was hoping the 'halo' effect would bring him the company he wanted back then.

I don't believe that 9th regened cuter to "reward" Rose but I think it may of been a subconscious attempt to stop Rose bringing in pretty drop-kicks like Adam and subconscious jealously of Captain Jack. It may have also been he remembered liking the attention his previous incarnation (no.8) got and perhaps an attempt to make Rose like and accept him quicker (we tend to feel more friendly towards someone the cuter they are - yes we are all that shallow). However I think the doc was naieve enough when it comes to the romantic/erotic side of life to fail to understand the full power of the 'halo' effect that it can make people pre-disposed to become besotted with you even if they already know you.

Re: Rose, 10 and the halo effect (an alternative POV), part one

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your thoughts on both your posts (I assume they're both yours, correct?). I...don't really agree on all accounts, but that's okay, I can see that you don't really agree on all my points. It's nice to hear other thoughts, and see them put into order in a way that makes complete sense. Thanks again.

Rose, 10 and the halo effect (an alternative POV), part two

[(Anonymous)]

The 'halo' effect can be seen as the double-edged sword inside fandom - DT has a few people who like him cos he's cute but also people who resent him for the same reason and because of the lust bunnies. It is also traditional that we take good looking less seriously than average ones -we adore them more and respect them less.

I lot of people also forget that with Rose and 10's relationship - that if Rose becomes a little bit more clingy it's also do with seeing the doctor die and then almost die again. 10 may have an easier 'birth' in some ways than some but the thing that killed 9 almost kills him too. There is nothing like almost losing someone to make you a bit over-protective/possessive of them. I also don't think NE is that coupley. If Rose says "she loves being with 10" maybe it's a re-assurance to him that they're still ok as travelling companions. It's the first time he's taken her anywhere and he seems unsure as if she still wants to come along at the end of TCI. Things she's says later relating to events of "End of the World" seem to indicate that she chooses to see that this is more or less the same person as 9 something he does not contradict. It probably helps them both to see it that way - it means she adjusts better to him and she doesn't have to mourn 9 (which by explaining re-gen the way he was probably his intention). We don't know how much time passes between NE and T&C and so can we really judge how friendly they should or shouldn't be to each other.

In "School Reunion" the relationship recieves a check in the form of SJ (who I think it may have hit later being left and especially when he didn't return as she may have been expecting) reminding them of what could happen to Rose if they're not careful. It may be one of the reasons why he readily accepts Mickey on board perhaps hoping that she and Mickey will grow closer and this will act as a buffer should fate separate them in the future or should she decide to settle down at some point. Both 9 and 10's relationships with Rose are made more ambigious by the fact that she is technically (and to some degre emotionally too) someone else's girlfriend. It may also be a way the doctor tries to 'make it up' to Mickey who 10 seems to be more sensitive towards than 9 was generally. The fall-out from "School Reunion" I think explains why those in GITF happen at that point.

There is a distinct shift in Rose's expectations after Mickey leaves especially since she believes she will never see him again. There are a number of factors at play here - the first is that she is now technically and emotionally a free-agent, the second is that Mickey draws attention to the fact that the doctor as been the main person in Rose's life for some time now by responding to her "I need you" with "no you don't you've got him". I don't think it's that surprising that Rose starts to see herself as 'the girlfriend' at this stage, especially since the two of them seem to a happy little unit, laughing and goffing around together. It is interesting she greets Pete's interpretation of the arguement that the 9th and Rose have as a lovers tiff with "Why does everyone think he's the boyfriend" but doesn't bother to contradict "your young man" comments in "Fear Her". Does she just accept that's how it's seen or more likely is she seeing herself as the girlfriend?. I think his occasional comments that it might not be 'together forever' are to be read in the fact that experience teaches you that sometimes spanners do get thrown into works, especially with the dangerous life they lead.

Sometimes too much can be read off-stage by the "they love each other" comments especially since RTD describes Rose as doc's 'best friend' on the Confidental program for SP, people also claimed 9 and Rose 'loved each other' too and that Captain Jack was someone who shock that up a bit(Stephen Moffat's comments in "Empty Child" Confidental).

I seem to have lost where I was going here but I think there's a lot of room for bring your own subtext to things but to me the relationships with both docs seem to make sense - both of them. I don't think Rose is a fool or a hussy but an emotional person who meet an extra-ordinary one - can we really blame her for falling for him - really?.

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[deronda79.livejournal.com]

Oooh, I really loved this. You really, really summed up what I love about Doctor/Rose and what I don't so much like. Me, I'm a Nine/Rose girl all the way. I agree with nina's post that there was something a little off about 10/Rose since he was more traditional. I also love DT. As I've said in other places, I think it's impossible not to. He emits the charm! However, I can't stand the whole "But he's cute now! Squee!" thing that some people have brought o the Doctor/Rose ship. I realize CE is not everyone's cup of tea, but damn!
Anyway, great, great post! And I am totally using one of your icons, seeing as how they rock!

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Thank you for commenting! I think you've seen that I very much agree with you.

Re: the icons, thanks very much, enjoy and don't forget to credit! Thanks again for the comment, I enjoyed it.