Not really a rant...

[meganlynn09]

But it involves Doctor Who and fandom...

I sort of have a problem with people asserting statements made my the writers and actors as canon.  What's seen on the screen is canon.  RTD said, I think during Nine's run, that Rose and the Doctor are soulmates.  Is it canon?  I don't really think so and I don't believe it because I protest using that term in regards to Doctor/Rose.  I do just want to say that if Rose fell in love with the Doctor, SHE FELL IN LOVE WITH NINE FIRST.  That's my opinion, and it's not wavering.  Do I believe the Doctor loved her back, Nine or Ten, most likely.  But he loved all his companions (mostly).  

Was Ten healthier than Nine?  The way I saw Ten play out, not really.  He wasn't completely wayed down by the Time War anymore but his attitude and behavior was beyond confidant, it was smug, and he was comfortable in that "god" role, whereas Nine wasn't.

I think RTD made the mistake of making all these statements about what was happening and going on in season 2, and it wasn't being shown onscreen, IMHO.  He said the regeneration would be dealt with in the new season (after "The Christmas Invasion") and it wasn't.  And that's not an opinion.  She only mentioned he was different once in "New Earth" and that wasn't because he was talking so much.  THAT'S NOT DEALING WITH IT.

I think my biggest problem is the Ten/Rose vs. Nine/Rose thing.  I'm not getting into it, really I'm not.  What it comes down to is preferance.  I prefer Nine/Rose because I prefer Nine (and yes nina_ds, I'm writing my little essay about him).

I love this show, I really do, this show just kills me dead with how much I just always want to talk about, as you all can attest to.  I have a million things about the show that bother me.  But I have a billion reasons why I love it.  I hate sometimes posting my opinion, but I do it anyway because it's my right and if people can talk about how sexy Two/Jamie is, I can talk about how sexy I find Nine.  And that I do like him more than Ten.  But it's okay if you don't.  And I'm losing myself here, so I'll just go.

Don't be afraid to comment on what I've said.  If you violently disagree with anything I said, say something.

Goodnight to you all.

Comments

[romanticizing.livejournal.com]

My opinion on Doctor Who canon is that everyone has his own canon, just like two people can have two different interpretations of the same scene. There's just so much out there with the new and old series, the TV movie, the audio dramas, the novels, the comics, &c. So I think that while one person mmay consider a novel canon, someone else might not, and that's fine. And same for writer (or whoever) statements about the show. There are some that I agree with and use to add to my idea of the show, but some I just disregard completely. And it's always changing. I'm just really sick of fights over what's canon--it's just too varied to define.

That said, I think there's a base that most everyone can agree on as canon, and that's whatever's shown on screen. So I try to keep that in mind when discussing the show with others.

Oh, and I agree about them not dealing with the regeneration. When Rose was crying and all during The Christmas Invasion, I felt the same way to an extent, and it kind of seemed like a slap in the face the way she was suddenly all cheerful and "No argument from me!" (or whatever the hell she said) when Ten was fighting the Sycorax. It just seemed like they shoved Nine aside, and their shared past aside, and I really didn't like that since I was so emotionally invested in the first season.

And also: what essay?

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

See, I don't think I expressed it right. My actual gripe is that when some of the new Doctor Who fans are talking about Doctor/Rose, they like to use the interviews as proof that they're right, and that bothers me. Just like you, I can pick what I want for canon when it comes to this show, and I sort of chose to ignore all of the interviews and stuff RTD says. I've yet to read novels and all that jazz. :)

And also: what essay?

I'm most likely going to post an essay, with pictures, to officially express my adoration of the Ninth Doctor in a more professional manner. *snorts*

[romanticizing.livejournal.com]

By the way, don't think I didn't notice you changed your post while I was commenting ;)

I have a million things about the show that bother me. But I have a billion reasons why I love it.

I totally agree with that :) I guess that's why there's so much discussion about it all the time.

My actual gripe is that when some of the new Doctor Who fans are talking about Doctor/Rose, they like to use the interviews as proof that they're right, and that bothers me.

Oh, yeah, well, I don't agree with that. I'd only use the interviews as evidence in my head :) Anyway, trying to "prove" something like that doesn't make much sense as people have different opinions. I haven't read any of the novels (and I probably never will), but I did listen to one of the Five audios. Did you get back to watching the Five episodes, by the way?

And I'm looking forward to seeing your Nine essay :)

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

By the way, don't think I didn't notice you changed your post while I was commenting ;)

:)

Do you know what I changed? Because I know I did it, I just don't remember what I added or removed.

And right now, my mind is bursting with things to write about Nine and make it all come out and make sense and get people to really understand what I loved about him. I just don't know if it'll all come out correctly.

Oh Five! I need to watch him, I wanted to make icons!

[romanticizing.livejournal.com]

Hmmm.. here's the stuff I think you added:

I do just want to say that if Rose fell in love with the Doctor, SHE FELL IN LOVE WITH NINE FIRST. That's my opinion, and it's not wavering. Do I believe the Doctor loved her back, Nine or Ten, most likely. But he loved all his companions (mostly).

And then from "I love this show" to the end. I forget if there's anything else.

And right now, my mind is bursting with things to write about Nine and make it all come out and make sense and get people to really understand what I loved about him. I just don't know if it'll all come out correctly.

I know what you mean--I feel like that too--I always want to write pages and pages about Nine but I can't get the words out right. I haven't even watched any Nine episodes in a while. I've been so busy. I think I might watch one tonight.

Oh Five! I need to watch him, I wanted to make icons!

You do need to watch him! You're missing out on great stuff like this:



I've actually been watching some non-Doctor Who shows with Peter Davison in them lately. Those are quite good, too.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Ah ah! I don't even want to know the context of that pic. Haha! I love it, I'm so watching Five later.

[romanticizing.livejournal.com]

Haha, isn't it amazing? That has to be one of my favorite caps ever. It's from The King's Demons, a two-parter. But yes, that cap = always funny.

BTW I somehow missed that this post got picked up on who_daily. Yay?

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Yay, I suppose. Nothing really that's going to bring me any trouble, I would hope. It's not like I posted "I HATE TEN". Although, I do wonder what would happen if I did that on doctorwho and/or time_and_chips.

Actually, it would have to be "I SERIOUSLY DISLIKE TEN", because there is no hating here.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Glad to know I'm not the only one that is not a huge fan of Ten.

Although, it doesn't sound to me like you were bashing Ten, but people perceive things in they're own way. I'm not going to judge.

And hello!

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I think some people just don't understand that others might not the Ten is the best thing since sliced bread. Hell, I sometimes think what show people were watching when they say they don't like Nine, but that's me and I like to keep my problems to myself. People's opinions are just that. If some can't understand that, I wish they weren't so vocal about it.

I think I might like Five more than Ten, he's the only old series Doctor I've seen, and I've only seen three of his arcs.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

It just seemed like they shoved Nine aside, and their shared past aside, and I really didn't like that since I was so emotionally invested in the first season.

I can understand why they might have wanted to move swiftly on to stand-alone episodes, it was the abruptness of the shift. We had such emotional continuity in S1, and then suddenly it seemed to drop away. It's a weird dichotomy, and fandom kind of amplifies it: "He's the same guy, so why do you have a problem with him changing?" vs. "Every regeneration has a different look/personality etc., so you have to get used to him being different." You can't really have it both ways, even if you can see the logic of both statements. Because it's not "natural" (ie, humans don't regenerate, so we have no experience at this), it's not simple. They set up a horizon of expectation (abetted by RTD's comments) that was then not met, at least for some of us.

There's a great deal of call for the third season to show some mourning for Rose, and yet asking for some mourning for Nine (and his very specific personality) is seen as being somehow irrational.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

There's a great deal of call for the third season to show some mourning for Rose, and yet asking for some mourning for Nine (and his very specific personality) is seen as being somehow irrational.

That bothers me. Mostly because I don't want him to be moping about Rose. And because he's had less reactions to companions DYING than he did when Rose went to the other universe to live with her mother and Mickey and Pete. She lived, she gets to have a life.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

And because he's had less reactions to companions DYING than he did when Rose went to the other universe to live with her mother and Mickey and Pete.

Well, yeah, there is that! :-)

I go back to wanting Rose to have her fantastic life. That's another reason why PotW actually makes me cry with joy, because the love on both sides was so unselfish. They died for each other because they each wanted the other to live, and it worked.

SF and time travel can make your logic hurt ;-)

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Completely agree on PotW.

And I think what it comes down to is that yes, the new series of DW is continuing from the older series, but at the same time it's not. RTD's already shown that he's not really following the format of those episodes, so we can't expect him to now. Except for when it comes to the Doctor. You can't change the character so much so that he's not the same anymore just because of some...love story (really wanted to add another word in there).

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

In so much agreement! New Earth was so different from Nine/Rose's dynamic, and then I get people telling me that it's irrational to ship Nine/Rose but not Rose/Ten. And it's still the Doctor etc.

I've ranted about this too many times :P But y'know who cares if we don't find themselves shipping Rose with all of the Doctor's. People need to learn to back off, and leave others to their own opinions

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I get people telling me that it's irrational to ship Nine/Rose but not Rose/Ten.

Well, then you can tell people it's irrational to ship Ten/Rose and not Nine/Rose, it's still the Doctor. Maybe it doesn't really work that way, but how can one really deny that she loved Nine first? I mean you could, but I wouldn't believe it.

And yes.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

New Earth was so different from Nine/Rose's dynamic, and then I get people telling me that it's irrational to ship Nine/Rose but not Rose/Ten.

They are very different. What always puts sand in my gears is that Rose/Ten seems so standard-TV-fair flirty shippy (I can see that for many people, that's what counts, that's how they have learned to read TV romance); but Nine/Rose feels like a deeper bond that, while sexual, goes so much deeper. To my way of thinking, it would make more sense of we had Ten before Nine, if you get what I mean. The way we got it, it seemed to be going backward, or at least flattening out and becoming more "standard".

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Yes, it become more standard all round. Even with Rose getting jealous of the ex in SR, as opposed to the inventive Jack was used in season 1 as ultimately wanting to "dance" with them both

[romanticizing.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you're right. I knew he was going to regenerate, but I wasn't prepared for it at all, mostly because I didn't realize how into the show, and really involved with it, I'd gotten till I was sitting there crying at that moment. I still feel weird about the regeneration, even now having seen a bunch of old school episodes.

Fandom can be frustrating sometimes. Everything does seem to get blown up into an argument.


There's a great deal of call for the third season to show some mourning for Rose, and yet asking for some mourning for Nine (and his very specific personality) is seen as being somehow irrational.

I don't understand that. I hope there's not a lot of mourning for Rose. Rose is doing her own exciting stuff (I hope), but Nine is gone.

[prchung.livejournal.com]

I can understand that with the Ninth Doctor saving Rose by taking in the Vortex it was a catharsis for him, something of a cleansing of the soul, and an ultimate sacrifice, whereas he'd just admitted to being a coward to the Dalek emperor-- But he wasn't to do what he did for her, and this shows how much he really did love her-- not necessarily in a sexual context, but true love and respect.

With having saved Rose and shed the skin of a self that the Doctor maybe hated-- a product of the Time War, assuming that Eight regenerated into Nine as a result of the Time War-- I can understand that Ten was a different Doctor, free of the guilt and self loathing that Nine carried with him. Still, the entire dynamic changed between Rose and Ten. Rose seemed almost over-confident at times, as though she was an equal with the Doctor suddenly. When in season one there was a sense of foreboding in many situations, season two was too flippant in attitude.

I saw this happen with CSI:New York last year. The first season was dark and gritty, and sexy in an angsty sort of way, but then in season two the entire format was changed (they even took Mac's tie away!) and I swear every episode opened up like some tacky rock video with some woman's pelvis gyrating in the camera. The producers were playing to a different audience; an audience I dare not even name, but one that I obviously wasn't a member of.

I too love this show, and maybe am obsessed just a bit with it as well, but I'm stalking anyone or making threatening phone calls, or attacking anyone on their views, so I don't see that it's unhealthy obsession. But I am being to self-analyze my deep interest.

I honestly see the relationship between Rose and the Ninth doctor as this beautifully tragic romance doomed from the moment they met. It's as close to classic, in the sense of the great works of literature in western civilization (not to put RTD on a pedestal) as you can find in a pop culture medium, and I believe that this is greatly in part to how the Ninth Doctor was portrayed.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Wonderful comment, nothing to really add, just a wonderful comment.

I can understand that Ten was a different Doctor, free of the guilt and self loathing that Nine carried with him. Still, the entire dynamic changed between Rose and Ten. Rose seemed almost over-confident at times

Yes, and I think that's why I don't know if Ten was really healthier because he sort of encouraged this over-confidence in Rose, and he shouldn't have. She was too confident in the fact that they would never be separated and neither took any precautions when stepping into situations. Maybe that's just me, I love a good mystery, but I love a smart mystery where characters don't have to be so confident or stupid for things to fall into place and work.

[prchung.livejournal.com]

It completely took the excitement out of it for me when they just started nancing into situations as if there was nothing to worry about because they'd get out of anything somehow or another... Laaa de da de daaaa.

[I cannot type or think tonight!]

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

That is bothersome, mostly because I don't like skipping.

*is tired, needs bed*

[prchung.livejournal.com]

but I'm stalking anyone or making threatening phone calls, or attacking anyone on their views, Urm, that should be "not" stalking anyone... Hmm, perhaps a Freudian slip.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I think because of the first fandom I was ever involved in, Gilmore Girls, and what happened there and a combo with BSG, I just stopped reading and listening to interviews, so that carried over to DW. The interviews really don't back-up what I see in the show, but to each his/her own. And I understand that.

See, if RDM had handled Lee/Dee better, I would have accepted it more. But, personally, for me, I can handle Lee/Dee better than Kara/Anders. They sort of make me ill. Crap, I got rid of my Kara/Lee icon!

[bluekiwibubble.livejournal.com]

I am far too lazy to write a proper comment-reply to your post, but just wanted to say
I love this show, I really do, this show just kills me dead with how much I just always want to talk about I feel your pain.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Yeah.

[bluekiwibubble.livejournal.com]

opps, didn't mean to have 'I feel your pain' in italics *headdesk* Not being able to talk about it without people rolling their eyes at me and..yeh *shutting up*

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Don't know if you can get hold of the New Series One shooting scripts in the USA, but RTD's comments on them are very revealing. They make it clear that the amazing chemistry between Chris and Billie came as a real shock to them, putting shipping on the agenda in a very significant way. Eccleston's departure left a huge problem, how to continue that with a very different Doctor.

My own theory is that, lovely people though both of them probably are, the romantic chemistry between DT and BP was zero, and the whole series was left weaker by the struggle to integrate the two narratives. When you think about it, all the high points of Series 2 - SR, TGITF, TIP/TSP and even, to some extent, Doomsday, happen when Rose and the Doctor are apart.

It'll be very interesting to see what happens with Martha. TGITF suggests that if they get it right this time, we're in for quite a ride.

But where does that leave Rose?(sigh)

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I get the chemistry and why they used it in season one, didn't like that they pushed it in season 2, because like you, I really didn't see all that much chemisty between BP and DT. And yeah, their best moments were when they were separated.

Um, TGitF wasn't exactly my favorite episode, while it probably was one of the better ones, IMHO, they really faltered with it.

But I do look forward to Martha, here's hoping they play their cards right.

Thank you for your comment!

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I know it makes me weird, but I didn't see much Nine/Rose chemistry until Ten/Rose, where the lack of it (for me) just stood out. Ten had chemistry with like everyone else ever, so it was freaky. So looking back on it now, Nine and Rose have a bit of chemistry.

I can see why they wouldn't want to ditch the romantic-tension angle when they changed Doctors, but I just don't think the chemistry was up to it, certainly not to what they suddenly wanted to do with the storyline.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

And see it wasn't the lack of chemistry that bothered me with Ten/Rose, it was the pushing it in my face/acting like we're 12 bit. It got old so very fast.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I thought it was quite pushed in S1, cos I never managed to get onto the ship so it was really noticable for me when it was trying to sell me something I just couldn't see.

S2 had the "giggling twats" thing which was annoying, but there were moments in S1 where I can see how the S2 giggling was just a progression from that.

*is weird*

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Ah well, as can be seen, I'm a Nine/Rose fan on my good days. I try not to talk much about Ten/Rose. I also think a lot of it comes down to which Doctor one prefers.

*is a bit biased about her ships*

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I didn't like either Doctor/Rose. I tried and it didn't work for me :(

I think it's totally reasonable to ship a character with one Doctor and not another. They're the same person but also... not. I can sort of imagine Eight/Rose, but Four/Rose I just can't fit my head round at all. Same for all the ships, though. Two/Jamie, hell yeah, but Five/Jamie seems weird somehow Five would never cheat on Tegan and/or Turlough omg.

So, err, you make sense, yes. Lots of sense.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

That's fine, sometimes it's nice to talk to someone who isn't shipping them. :)

I think it's totally reasonable to ship a character with one Doctor and not another.

Thank god someone does.

I can sort of imagine Eight/Rose

Which really makes to want to see Eight, like, now. Seriously.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Thank god someone does.

Well, they're never going to all click with every Doctor, y'know? I think it's a bit freakish that Sarah Jane seems to.

Which really makes to want to see Eight, like, now. Seriously.

I think I can see Eight/Rose (kindamaybe) because books and audio stuff kept on giving him shippiness with teen girls. So it's not a huge leap in my head, y'know?

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I think it's a bit freakish that Sarah Jane seems to.

Yeah, I thought she worked very well with Ten, and can't wait to see more of her with Four. And Three.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

My own theory is that, lovely people though both of them probably are, the romantic chemistry between DT and BP was zero, and the whole series was left weaker by the struggle to integrate the two narratives.

I think Tennant's great, but he just couldn't pull off the two narratives. There's times there was almost an audible gearing sound as he tried to shift from "do what you're doing otherwise" to "care about Rose." Either his heart wasn't in it or there's a serious problem beyond that with making the two parts fit.

in from who_daily

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I tend to go with "interviews =/= canon." Example, Steven Moffat said in interview that the Doctor was married at some point. I agree with him, as far as I'm concerned it's probably right, but it ain't canon it's just one man's opinion. RTD thinks the Doctor and Rose are soulmates? That's nice for him, but it's so far from what I see on-screen that I just have to discard it.

Oh, the canon arguments I've had or seen in fandom... basically I'm just at a point where I think the easiest thing is for everyone to pick and choose. Doesn't mean we can't all get into debates about it, cos that can be fun, but it does mean we are none of us utterly right all the time. If you can argue your case and it makes sense, then fair enough.

There's just too much canon, no one can decide what canon even is, and it's full of contradictions and things that make no sense. And retcons, those as well.

Re: in from who_daily

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I think I'm just going to have to learn that lesson with this fandom. All the history and all the fans, it's almost as if no two people can agree here.

The problem for me comes down to when people quote interviews to me was "proof" that they're right.

Re: in from who_daily

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I think the most we can say from interviews is "So-and-so thinks this, therefore if you agree that thoughts = canon, then this would be canon."

[kitmarlowescot2.livejournal.com]

The Doctor is a polygamist, he has lots and lots of soulmates and pretty lovers. :)

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, that seems to be the way it should go!

[ladyherenya]

I think that Rose fell in love with Nine, and he definitely loved her back. From what I saw on the screen, I feel I can definitely say they loved each other. I'm not sure whether it was romantically or not, but I personally think the fun is there in guessing anyway, so I don’t care. I just love the subtly of it all, and that you can read things into it if you so desire, but don't really have to.
Nine and Rose's relationship was built on trust and companionship and I think that's why it worked (using relationship in a broad non-romantic way there) so well. Because of the mutual and genuine trust, friendship and respect I see between Nine/Rose, I don't personally have a problem with the "soul mates" comment. They cared about each other as people, and had a lot to teach each other.
With Ten/Rose, I don't think it works so much like that, at least, from what I've seen so far Rose hasn't challenged the Doctor the way she did back in, say, Dalek or Father's Day. There's not the same two-way-ness to the relationship. I wonder, actors' chemistry aside, if it was because they started straight away with Ten being "Rose's Doctor". She doesn't connect with him as a friend in the same way she does with Nine. If she'd had to work at learning to trust and really know him again, I think it might have had more to it. Its probably what you said, its not really dealt with, the regeneration. It's also partly that I think it comes across as a more romantic relationship and combined I personally find it lacking something that Nine/Rose's relationship had that I enjoyed so much.
I loved The Christmas Invasion because Rose spent a lot of time crying over Nine, which was what I felt like doing too... I like the Ninth Doctor better, because I just love his personality and character. I can see the Tenth Doctor as the Doctor, and I’m enjoying the episodes, but sometimes I feel as though Rose is a bit inconsequential... I think its more a reflection on the situations rather than a change in Rose’s character, but I wonder if it comes back to her relationship with Ten. Its different – I mean, of course it’d be different. He’s a different personality. So yes, if I’m out shipping anyone, its Nine/Rose. That doesn’t seem illogical to me to be *searches for words* fanatic, no, um, I don’t know, interested in their relationship more so than Ten/Rose.

As for canon, I basically take what I see on the screen, otherwise I find it all too confusing. Oh, and “Doctor Who: The Legend Continues”, but that’s basically a nice detailed episode guide to everything.
So I guess that’s my little rant on the subject… um, yes, didn’t quite intend to go on about it so much. Sorry about that. Maybe its not a good idea for me to keep the cardboard Nine and Rose standing on my desk looking at me all the time. I think I’ll put them back in the cardboard pop-out TARDIS…

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the long comment!

I have to agree, I'm much more invested in Nine/Rose than I ever was with Ten/Rose. And I think aside from chemistry, it was the way things were written between them and how things played out, the differences in Rose's character and how the Doctor changed.

With canon, I've just come to except that people are going to take what they want. I'm just easily annoyed. :)

That doesn’t seem illogical to me to be *searches for words* fanatic, no, um, I don’t know, interested in their relationship more so than Ten/Rose.

'Cause it's not! ;)

[ladyherenya]

glad you didn't mind the long comment! I didn't realise how long it was until I posted it...