Megan

One of the major reasons I loved Nine/Rose was because on my good days, I could be like OMG THEY'RE SO IN LOVE AND AWESOME, and on my bad days when Doctor/Rose just made me eugh, I'd be, they're such good friends, yay.

It was hardly like that with Ten/Rose. But with them, my problems mostly arose as with the individuals and then with the couple.

But yeah, I think Nine and Rose played out the best. Guh, season one.

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nina-ds.livejournal.com

I think it's the old show-don't-tell conundrum. In film/television, it's always more powerful when you're shown something rather than told it. And S1 did that. The thing is, I went into S1 "knowing" that there wasn't supposed to be any hanky panky in the TARDIS, but every time I saw Rose and the Doctor together, there was this electricity in the way they looked at each other, and such an ease in their bodies, as if they wanted to lean into each other all the time - particularly from BP, but a very welcoming torso from CE (arms relaxed, chest open, loose in the hips - and when he wants to be closed off, God knows he can do that). I kept thinking, "Whoa, am I supposed to be seeing what I'm seeing here?"

By EOTW, the chemistry not only seemed clear, it seemed overwhelming. I thought it was a cute trick that instead of telling us, they kept denying it, which was a joke because "Why does everyone think we're a couple?" "Because, Rose, you look like you are head over heels in love with each other." Even Jack (who clearly would like to climb all over both of them, but especially the Doctor) says, "You two are so sweet." But they did keep denying the obvious - which some Ten/Rose shippers latch onto with glee.

Some people only believe things when they're spelled out on the surface - and Ten and Rose were all asquee over each other in hard-to-miss (IMO unbearably so) ways, but there was little to no body chemistry between them (I saw one flicker in Fear Her - too little too late!). They were not the grand, passionate, once-in-a-lifetime connection I got from Nine/Rose - they reminded me of the immature, slightly drunken frat boy/cheerleader combo who thought they were the coolest couple on campus but would end up breaking up after he cheats with someone else at Spring Break. (Or, basically, Britney and K-Fed.) There was just no depth to it, it was all shallow dramatics. Even if I hadn't loved Nine/Rose, I never would have liked Ten/Rose.

I also do not get this "Oh, Ten/Jack will be so pretty." That doesn't mean it will work, any more than Rose/Ten did. I'd rather them explore the dark, selfish side of the Doctor. I desperately want Jack to punch his pointy nose. But you knew that already....

BadWolf!Rose - I so wanted that to actually happen. I think AUs are possible, but I don't know that I've seen one that absolutely nailed it.

But yeah, the post-Doomsday baby!fic stuff is vile. I did glance at one which had the resultant baby with bright blue eyes and sticky-out ears, which was a bit of a kick, but not enough to justify it on the whole.

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nina-ds.livejournal.com

BTW, when I say "once-in-a-lifetime", I'm not implying that they're anyone's one-and-only - just that every relationship is different, and this one does have an epic quality that not all relationships are going to have.

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WHAT CAN I ADD?! You know me, there's really nothing I can say here. Nine/Rose were perfection and we got PotW's ending, which was just perfect and I couldn't be happier with the "resolution".

I was never really happy with Ten/Rose, so of course their "resolution" wouldn't be great to me. I liked what I believed to be the subtle relationship between Rose and Nine. I NEVER saw subtlety with Ten and Rose.

Season 1 had a story to tell, season 2 had...a badly planned romance?

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Why do some people seem to think Nine/Rose was more obvious than Ten/Rose? I'm honestly curious about it.

I found them both really blatant. Even with Nine/Rose every other episode there's a bit where it stops momentarily to say "Gosh, I'm so glad I met you!" or "Oh noes, I can't let YOU die!" and every other character comments on it, including -- and I almost can't believe I have to type this -- a Dalek. I never had any doubt that it wanted me to ship them, and I didn't have time to get used to the idea before it started selling it hard.

PLEASE STOP WITH THE BADWOLF!ROSE CRAP! There is no canon evidence that Rose containing the Time Vortex made her special, made her different(biologically) or made her a fucking Time Lady.

*falls over* It was interesting at first to play with in fic, but it's almost become fanon to the point where otherwise sensible people are convinced she's immortal now.

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lafemmedarla

and every other character comments on it, including -- and I almost can't believe I have to type this -- a Dalek.

But that has a very logical explanation: The Dalek downloaded the internet. He found teh fanfics and went mad!!!!

It totally makes the Dalek's self-destruction more logical. Poor Dalek.

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I am quite amused by the idea that the Daleks have been shipping Doctor/Companion for ages and are normally quiet about it in case they get into flamewars with each other.

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lafemmedarla

Maybe the Time War was simply the mother of all Ship Wars. But everybody calls it Time War as not to start another ship war. Those Daleks didn't take it kindly that the Time Lords did't like their fanfics.

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I believe this utterly now.

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Well I know they were selling Nine/Rose, but to me, it was easier to swallow than Ten/Rose. For me, it's the characters. I adored Nine and S1-Rose. I'm not particularly fond of Ten sometimes and I find it hard to like S2-Rose. *shrugs* I of course have problems with it, but it's there.

The Rose is immortal fic makes me want to stab something.

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Well I know they were selling Nine/Rose, but to me, it was easier to swallow than Ten/Rose.

Ten/Rose squicks me liek woah, but his habit of forgetting her when she's not there was a bit of a relief sometimes. Even though it leads to the horrid thought that he could get all the way back to the TARDIS without noticing she wasn't with him and have to go back for her.

The Rose is immortal fic makes me want to stab something.

But she has to be immortal so that she can stay with the Doctor forever!

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Even though it leads to the horrid thought that he could get all the way back to the TARDIS without noticing she wasn't with him and have to go back for her.

Where's that fic? And if it hasn't been written, somebody needs to do something about it.

But she has to be immortal so that she can stay with the Doctor forever!

Because she's the bestest companion evah and she's the only one allowed to hold his hand.

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Where's that fic? And if it hasn't been written, somebody needs to do something about it.

It's like how I'm convinced Ten would accidentally leave a child somewhere. ("Wait, didn't we have a baby with us?") It's sad, but it seems plausible somehow.

Because she's the bestest companion evah and she's the only one allowed to hold his hand.

TRUE FACT

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bluekiwibubble.livejournal.com

9/Rose = yay! UST! ~~Just like 5/everyone!~~

I never have anything constuctive to add. I feel a tad pathetic about that. In my defense...I've just spent 20 minutes writing down my views on original writing, fanfic writing, and the characters in the two. =)

The whole Rose-iz-a-time-lady just makes me go Wtf? Since when have people become timelords by absorbing the time vortex? The Dr even had to regenerate after absorbing if off her, so...meh. Stupid theories.
What did the wolf was in Tooth & Claw?

I've managed to avoid baby!fic. I haven't even seen any. Probably what comes of skipping over any dwfiction posts that list 10 as a character.

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I never got the Rose is a Time Lady crap either. She never exhibited the signs that this made her different so I don't know what some of fandom was thinking.

I forgot at the moment what exactly the wolf said, but it was something along the lines that hinted at Bad Wolf.

I think most of the baby!fic is with Ten, but there's been a few with Nine. They all make me gag, it doesn't matter how much I love Nine/Rose, ALL baby!fic makes me gag.

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phantomviola.livejournal.com

Thanks for the additional warning about the spoilers for "Doomsday". I averted my eyes so I didn't read the bottom of the post. *hehe*

To answer your first question about the obvious signs b/w Nine/Rose and Ten/Rose, I guess I would say that it's all about being subtle. I would say that Nine/Rose is far more subtle than Ten/Rose in the sense that verbally Nine/Rose didn't say they loved each other. Ten/Rose is the opposite because from the episodes I've seen so far, Rose has been very blunt about her feelings for the Doctor and he's held back. If that sounded biast, I apologize. Regarding the "HE'S THE SAME MAN!" comment, I must agree with you. It's not fair to dislike one Doctor over the other because of appearances or the way the actors portray him. It would be bloody boring if David did it the exact same way as Eccleston did it. I loved the Doctor before and I still do now. David Tennant and Christopher Eccleston are brilliant actors. If you prefer one over the other, that's your preference. I think that's it.

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I kept thinking, I bet there's someone who hasn't seen "Doomsday", so I added the warning. :)

And thanks for your reply. I'm just trying to arrange everything in my head. I'm getting bombarded by multiple fandoms and certain things just pop out at me!

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Actually I sort of agree, and sort of disagree *g* I think Ten/Rose were really in our face in NE, and then Doomsday. But if we're talking shippiness, I thought that Nine/Rose were more overt in that way. With comments like "you look beautiful" or "I could save the world, but lose you" long stare, it was hard to avoid that there was something more than friendship there.

Whereas, particularly before The Idiot's Lantern, I saw Rose/Ten as best friends really, and DT playing it as Rose being the more traditional companion for him, as compared to CE's playing of the Doctor.

Also I believe the original plan was to write Rose out in the Cyberman two-parter, and when BP agrees to stay, direction was changed and did become shippier after that. But. Okay NE is horrible with clingy Rose referring the their first date. But compared to the beautifull subtle dancing moment from TDD, "Most people notice when you've been teleported, you two are so sweet" the Doctor's reaction was a lot more casual to Rose actually kissing him (Nine would have been knocked sideways!). Instead it's more of a silly and fun moment, than part of a developing romance IMO

SR and TGITF both have Rose as the jealous person watching as the Doctor has handporn with another woman, and an actual romance as well. It throws into doubt the love story that season 1 made it clear it was portraying back in season 1. Season 2 makes us wonder more if they are supposed to just be friends now or what, has the Doctor's feelings changed

I do watch the Ten/Rose interaction as best friends, with unrequited love on Rose's side (with the classic example of the mortgage discussion). IMO Doomsday switches direction to suddenly have Ten mourning Rose so much. Because I previously saw them more as two giggly schoolkids together, and Rose's left over issues from the intensity of the bonding with Nine. Then with Doomsday it was suddenly like oh wait, season 2 was supposed to be telling a love story after all I guess

They were certainly more annoying than Nine/Rose :P But in terms of overt shippiness, I don't think Ten/Rose had that much really. Even their kiss was played as a gag, and the Doctor was most definitely not knocked off his feet by being kissed by who he thought was Rose

It's Doomsday's long drawn-out shippiness that really lets it down, as it stops the story for it way more than the casual touches and dialogue of Nine/Rose did. Even the Rose/Nine kiss was very much tied in to a decent plot, as opposed to just standing still on a beach and crying over tru wuv lost. But looking at the season overall, Doomsday really didn't fit with the message it was going with IMO

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Trying to summarise my long-winded ramble there, I guess what I'm trying to say is that, while Nine/Rose were certainly subtle, their shippiness was actually build into the narrative. It can be ignored more easily, because the story doesn't stop for it, but I do think it's just as blatantly there. Even a casual fan tuning in for the very first time would still have picked up on the shippiness in "I'm so glad I met you" moment for instance. Or so I believe *g*

Whereas Ten/Rose did not develop each episode in the same way, and it was all a bit of a mess. So yeah in a way Ten/Rose was definitely less subtle in some particular moments, but at the same time I don't quite know where they were going with them. If you cut out Doomsday, I'd say that season 2 could just as easily be looked at as a friendship which become wrapped up in smugness and adventure. Not an obvious love story on the Doctor's side

I think that's what I'm saying anyway *ponders* I'm not actually sure myself now...

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I think why I felt Ten/Rose was overt would have to be the interviews and what RTD kept talking about and how them wanted to be playing it.

There were mentions that there would be more romance in S2, that the Doctor was the love of Rose's life and of course we had RTD saying that they are "totally in love".

And of course, myself going into S2 already trying to ship them, and severely disappointed when it in no way measured up the Nine/Rose IMHO.

I'm wondering if some saw Nine/Rose as more overt because, again IMO, they had more of that sexual chemistry even if we saw that they were for the most part platonic. I thought their relationship and progress of said relationship was written out wonderfully and that all accumulates in PotW. How can one compare the end of PotW with "Doomsday"? Nine's goodbye to Rose was so much...more. I can't really explain it. They didn't make it this soppy mess, Rose smiled at his last words and...guh, I'm sorry I could gush about for a long time.

"Doomsday" left a bitter taste in my mouth for more than one reason.

Now I'm trying to see what my point was...

If you cut out Doomsday, I'd say that season 2 could just as easily be looked at as a friendship which become wrapped up in smugness and adventure.

I've been watching S2 as it's been playing on the SciFi channel here, and I'm trying to watch it with that in mind. Of course as the season goes on, it's getting a little harder.

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But then season 1 had similar interviews with RTD, CE, and BP pushing the love story as well.

I'm wondering if some saw Nine/Rose as more overt because, again IMO, they had more of that sexual chemistry even if we saw that they were for the most part platonic.

I think the UST was certainly obvious with Nine/Rose. Especially as we don't know if they even could be together, so there's something there, but it cannot quite be acknowledged. By the time of season 2, Rose laughing about them being on a date together, Cassandra mentioning Rose fancying the Doctor, just made me think that there was less of the UST.

Sorry to go back to TDD again, but the Doctor's look when Rose asked him to dance, that said everything to me. Rose/Ten were annoyingly giggly and in your face, but looking back I can't think of any moments they had like the dance from that episode. The ending of Doomsday really did push the ship, but other than that I think the season can be viewed as unrequited love on Rose's side, and the Doctor being awfully fond of his best friend, but not viewing her in that same way. I think she lost that with Nine, and that would have made a much more poignant story arc to explore, with season 2 ending with Rose accepting Ten on his own merits, but realising it wasn't ever going to be quite the same and perhaps choosing to make her departure, instead of being packed off by her father and the Doctor.

I would have loved for the transition season to see Rose (the audience identification figure for many) struggling more with the Doctor's change, and perhaps having moments of "the man I know wouldn't have done that". If she had actually thought to question him over some of decisions, like the Harriet Jones case, that could have been much more interesting. Instead she just trotted round after him like a lovesick puppy most of the time. But I was never sure that her feelings were returned.

Even Doomsday could be seen as the Doctor just getting all emo over losing his best friend (and Rose was his first companion since the Time War, so a bit of a wrench to lose her in the way that he did). There could almost be a sense that he was just going to say the I love you because he thought that's what Rose wanted to hear, although I may well be reaching there *g* He did seem cautiously happy over Rose maybe moving on with Mickey though. And Nine gave Mickey and Rose their space in episodes like Boomtown, but there was still a sense of not exactly jealously, but well I'm not sure how to explain it.. Nine and Jack were certainly watching what was going on there in Boomtown, and you knew that Nine was thinking something about it

I am totally failing to get across what I mean there :P But it was definitely different from Rose and Ten cracking up at Mickey, to me that was more two friends excluding someone else from their special club, rather than romantic tension

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But then season 1 had similar interviews with RTD, CE, and BP pushing the love story as well.

Probably why I'm thankful I wasn't watching the season currently with everyone else. It probably would have ruined Nine/Rose for me!

I think what was great about Nine/Rose was that in the end, they never had to acknowledge how they felt about one another, they knew it and they didn't care if nobody else did. They knew what they had and revelled(sp?) in it, Ten and Rose seemed to always want to flaunt...whatever they had going.

I know if I were Mickey, I'd want to stay away from them, they were so nauseating sometimes.

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I think they were the sort of couple we'd all run from at a dinner party :P

And ooh something else I've been pondering is I think Billie saw season 2 as more obviously shippy because perhaps it was for Rose. There was certainly jealousy of the ex going on, and all the rest of it. But what did that really mean for Ten/Rose as a ship of two? I think what was missing was the Doctor's own feelings during season 2, and I never got such a strong feeling from him as I did from CE's playing of Nine. Now these moments to me are undisputably more than just friendship feelings on his part:

His "you look beautiful" stare at Rose.

His "I could save the world, but lose you" speech because of the long stare that accompanied it.

Dalek's despair at the woman he loves dying.

FD with the dance of sexual tension, the dancing metaphor for sex throughout, then ending in a big glorious dance number

Ten was never given a moment of jealousy in season 2 from what I recall, that was all on Rose's part. As opposed to them both getting possessive over one another in season 1. The Tardis was the real love of Ten's life :P

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I don't know what to say about Billie right now because some of the blame for her character in S2 I do put on her. She should have realized how bad it was getting. But I do understand what you're saying.

I just feel that CE's a better actor, and he was able to handle some of the material and I still think he had a better handle on the Doctor. I don't care how "old school" Ten is.

*sigh* I should stop now before I just get mean. ;)

I miss Nine/Rose.

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But I like when you're mean *g*

And yeah, I'm surprised that Billie didn't try to soften the characterisation of Rose at certain times. Particularly with the outright meanness at the end of School Reunion. (that was awful) I'm sure a lot of audience members could relate to Mickey as a bit of a screw-up, bit of a coward, but basically well-meaning. And there's Rose being an utter bitch and rolling her eyes at him. I'd have thought the outright bitchiness would turn the schoolkids of her character in droves, it's the sort of nasty behaviour I hated during my own schooldays.

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My mouth was literally hanging open what I watched that scene. I was completely stunned that she was acting like that. I mean I laughed that she mouthed "No" to the Doctor and he went ahead and said yes but later I was like...WTF? Surely Billie was questioning this? RTD was seeing all this?

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I know! That nasty oh yeah it'll be great attitude to Mickey in SR just had me cringing. He had already been invited by then, so it wouldn't have hurt her to at least try and be nice at that point. What a complete and utter cow, I was so embarrassed on his behalf. She didn't even try to not humiliate the poor guy, and SR had portrayed them both as friends.

I didn't approve of how Rose messed Mickey about in season 1 as her bf. But there was something worse to me about her treating a friend like that, and I could really put myself in Mickey's shoes there. Just urgh

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She treats him like that and than TGitF rolls around and...they're best friends?! The script continuity needed some work desparately.

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gynx78.livejournal.com

This is just my opinion and I don't really do this often, but there is no way you can discuss 9 & 10 without getting into the personalities of the actors and the fact that RTD obviously, wrote & produced more to Chris E.'s personality than to David T.'s. Also, Chris E.'s DW broke from the usual persona of DW and David T.'s went back to the more traditional DW. Chris brought an intensity to DW that not many actors could have. I sure wish there was some way RTD could convince Chris to come back after David T. leaves and figure a way to write him back in, but as Chris has moved on to a movie, (New Orleans Mon Amor) and 2 TV series ( The Prisoner and Heroes), I guess it's not to be. Anyway, Chris and BP had an intensity that David T. and BP just can't seem to generate no matter who writes for them, but I still love DW, the show and hate that we in the US have to wait for it and Torchwood!!

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