Doctor Who

[meganlynn09]

I'm not really going to put this behind a cut, but just a heads-up, it includes dialogue from "Army of Ghosts".   

You know, one of my favorite scenes in S2, is probably one of the most harsh, especially to Rose, but there's something about the scene and the dialogue that really rings for me.

JACKIE (who has been contemplating Rose)
You even look like him?

ROSE
How d'you mean? (smiles) I s'pose I do, yeah.

JACKIE
You've changed so much.

ROSE
For the better...

JACKIE (whispers)
I s'pose.

ROSE (turning to her)
Mum, I used to work in a shop.

JACKIE (defensively)
I've worked in shops. What's wrong with that?

ROSE
No, I didn't mean that.

JACKIE
I know what you meant. What happens when I'm gone?

ROSE (shocked)
Don't talk like that!

JACKIE (seriously)
No, but really. When I'm dead and buried, you won't have any reason to come back home. What happens then?

ROSE (quietly)
I don't know.

JACKIE
Do you think you'll ever settle down?

ROSE
The Doctor never will, so I can't. I'll just keep on travelling.

JACKIE
And you'll keep on changing. And in forty years time, fifty, there'll be this woman - this strange woman... walking through the marketplace on some planet a billion miles from Earth. She's not Rose Tyler. Not anymore. She's not even human... 

I'll start with the first part that I bolded.  That's the important part, which started this little discussion between Rose and her mom.

In Jackie's eyes, she sees her daughter changing and it's not for the better.  You can see evidence in the later line, from Rose "The Doctor never will [settle down], so I can't. (Emphasis, obviously, mine)  That's so disturbing to me, and it's at the core of what's wrong, IMHO, with S2 Rose.

We saw with S1 that Rose loved traveling with the Doctor, but what she loved more was seeing what more she could be, what more she could do.

With the end of S2, it was all about the Doctor for Rose, forget the rest.  And that's troubling.

People kept saying that Jackie just didn't want Rose to grow, she kept imposing her life on Rose, and I'm continually WTF? about it.  Because IMHO, Jackie's being a mother.  It's one thing for her to let Rose go and do her own thing in the same country, but she's supposed to sit back and let her roam the universe without a care?  With a man like the Doctor, how can Jackie trust that she'd even receive word that something had happened to Rose?  And that applies to both Nine and Ten.  Because above all, Jackie is Rose's mother, and that means something, especially to Rose(even if she was willing to leave her behind because OMG life with the Doctor is forever and ever, no, I'm not bitter or anything).

And I notice in this little speech from Jackie, she's not technically discouraging Rose from traveling with the Doctor, she's trying to call notice to the fact that the changes with Rose maybe aren't the best for her.

Maybe she went about it in a harsh way, but that's the mother's way.  (Or at least Jackie's and my own mother's).

I don't really know what started this, but watching "Army of Ghosts" when it was on SciFi just reminded me that I actually really loved that scene.

And a little aside, PLEASE OH PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT DOES NOT LIKE THE JACK/ROSE PAIRING?  

What am I forgetting to point out?  Somebody tell me I'm missing something, 'cause I know I am.

Comments

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

Y'know, the thing about this:


JACKIE
You've changed so much.

ROSE
For the better...

JACKIE (whispers)
I s'pose.

If this had happened, say, in POTW or even TCI, I think Jackie would have perhaps been more willing to say that Rose was better. During S2, I think we all saw "our" Rose disappear. I join you in the Jackie love. Adored her (I've actually loved Camille Coduri since the shockingly surprising Hawks, even though Janet McTeer and Timothy Dalton kind of overshadowed her). She had the best scene all series, I thought, in Love & Monsters.

Would the Doctor have brought her back? I read one of the few Ten fics I've been able to finish (tho' I can't remember the title or author now) of the Doctor bathing Rose's dead body to take her home. I think he would have, if he could; I think Nine would have, too, perhaps even more so. I know that Jackie liked Ten better (although she says she loves Nine for sending Rose home in POTW), but I think Nine was afraid of her because he knew he was dangerous. I think he desperately wanted to promise her to keep Rose safe and knew he couldn't do it. Same reason I think he bailed on the dinner. He knew he was stealing her away and felt guilty about it...just not enough to stop it.

And I notice in this little speech from Jackie, she's not technically discouraging Rose from traveling with the Doctor, she's trying to call notice to the fact that the changes with Rose maybe aren't the best for her.

I wish more people noticed this or didn't wave it off. I still haven't figured out whether TPTB realized how unpleasant Rose's arc had become in S2.

I finally got a chance to see Runaway Bride and the last two episodes of TW tonight. TRB was still awfully noisy; Tennant did somewhat less shouting, but there was still eye-bugging, teeth-clenching, and jaw-jutting; Catherine Tate surprisingly moved me to tears at the end. I don't think the writing did it, I think it was her. TW12 was fantastic. Really, honestly, on a par with the middle of DW S1. And there was a love story that I could believe, even if that goodbye was impossible in the period. TW13 wasn't as good, but Eve Myles did some stunning; and I so don't care about Ianto it's not even funny. After TW12, it's clear that Jack can have incendiary chemistry with someone other than CE, and he and Ianto don't even have the chemistry he has with Gwen.

I'll join you, I do not like Jack/Rose as a primary pairing. I can see them in a triangular relationship with Nine, but the only way I can really see Jack/Rose is if they are in some way compensating for not having the Doctor, and that's just really sad - though not impossible. Jack and Rose had some chemistry in TEC, but it was part of his con, and it was completely superficial - aaaaand the minute she's back in the Doctor's orbit, she has eyes only for him. She used Jack to make him jealous, and she played him like a violin, but it was all about the Doctor.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

She had the best scene all series, I thought, in Love & Monsters.

Oh definitely. She'll protect her daughter from others, and from herself, and try to an extent the same with the Doctor. It was heartbreaking to see the stress and hurt it put her in to be left behind.

I still haven't figured out whether TPTB realized how unpleasant Rose's arc had become in S2.

I think I've heard some people say that RTD has acknowledged how sour Rose's arc went, but I want to read that interview or whatever if he did indeed say that. I sometimes feel like we're owed an apology.

I finally got a chance to see Runaway Bride and the last two episodes of TW tonight.

I, myself, have yet to sit down and watch Runaway Bride, but I have seen TW12 and am about to watch TW13.

And there was a love story that I could believe, even if that goodbye was impossible in the period.

Yes, I believed that love story, but I've seen others mention it as well, that ending would not go down well for the other man. That'll be a sore point for me.

One thing that's really struck me, and I can't tell if it's the writing, direction or just JB himself, but he's very hands on, I've noticed it a lot when he does scenes with Tosh, and he has a thing for putting his hand on people's backs to lead them into a room, but he's a very physical guy and I just love it. It's a very nice character detail.

I can see them in a triangular relationship with Nine

I, unfortunately, can't. *hides* I just can't get into the whole OT3 thing, I don't know what it is. I think it's because Rose, by the start of "Bad Wolf" is pretty Doctor-oriented:

aaaaand the minute she's back in the Doctor's orbit, she has eyes only for him.

And Jack quickly does the same.

[romanticizing.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I've wanted to see Hawks forever. Mostly because of Timothy Dalton, but because of Camille Coduri as well.

And I agree about TW12. It was as though we'd finally got Captain Jack back. I loved the love story and it was especially great to see because of the absence of Jack shagging anyone (which was missed) in the rest of the series. This has all got me really excited for season three of Who.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I've wanted to see Hawks forever. Mostly because of Timothy Dalton, but because of Camille Coduri as well.

If you can get hold of it, it's well worth a rental, or even buying (I have it on laser disc, believe it or not!). It's surprisingly touching and well-acted all around - Anthony Edwards is the weakest in the cast, which means that everyone is quite strong. This was the first thing I ever saw Janet McTeer in, and she knocked my socks off, while Timothy Dalton has never given a better performance. He's a little like CE in that he's so intense, people sometimes miss how great his comic timing is; he's not on the CE/Alan Rickman level, in either intensity or skill, but he's in the level just below alongside David Thewlis, David Hayman, and Xander Berkeley. He also has one of the all-time great lines that Jack should take heed of: "Suicide is the ultimate sulk."

This has all got me really excited for season three of Who.

I'll definitely like to see where they go with Jack. I don't want it to be all sweetness and light between him and the Doctor, not only because it doesn't seem realistic, but because they've already tried that with Rose. Let's see the flipside of regeneration, "You aren't the person I fell in love with, and what did you do with those beautiful ears?" Plus, y'know, "Why did you leave me?!"

[romanticizing.livejournal.com]

Laser disc, wow! I kind of want a laser disc player because there's so much rare stuff not on DVD on laser disc.

But yeah, Hawks was on TV several weeks ago, and I wish I'd recorded it. I really like Timothy Dalton (such an underrated Bond!). And yay, David Thewlis! I don't know who the two others you mentioned are so I guess I've some research to do :x

I don't want it to be all sweetness and light between him and the Doctor, not only because it doesn't seem realistic, but because they've already tried that with Rose.

Yes, me either. I still feel kind of cheated out of a proper reaction/getting to know Ten thing. I mean, he was sleeping for most of the 'getting to know him' episode! There are so many interesting issues there and they just sort of glossed over them. And I just don't like S2 Rose in general, mostly.

I'll be really annoyed if they give the Doctor and Jack a super-happy reunion. They have even more issues to work out. I can't really anticipate the dynamic between Ten and Jack, and that's slightly scary since with Nine/Jack it was so perfect. Yeah, I don't know how they're going to explain the fact that they didn't even mention Jack in S2--it seems the Doctor can't just handwave it with a 'no crossing our own timelines' thing. And where does Martha fit in to all this?

I think part of me just still really misses Nine, and this is kind of our last opportunity to deal specifically with him. I still want to know how much of the PotW events Rose remembers, and how she knows those things!

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I'll be really annoyed if they give the Doctor and Jack a super-happy reunion. They have even more issues to work out.

I've heard some sprinkles about how the reunion might NOT be all so happy, if you're curious.

[romanticizing.livejournal.com]

Awesome! *fingers crossed* I wonder if how much Rusty will influence the S3 Jack stuff. Or will it be all Moffat?

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Well, if Jack is in the finale episodes, RTD writes those, and hopefully Moffat will be writing an episode with Jack(it's not been confirmed).

I know a couple spoilers and it's making me anxious.

[romanticizing.livejournal.com]

"You even look like him?" I forgot about that line. Is there some context I'm forgetting about? How does she look like him?

That conversation really made me lose some sympathy for Rose. It kind of scared me, too. "The Doctor never will, so I can't. I'll just keep on travelling." No! It doesn't work that way! You're not soul mates :/ And I definitely think Rose changed for the worse in S2, but you know that.

Also, about RTD acknowledging S2 Rose being lame--I don't know of any article saying that, but there were certain parts of The Runaway Bride which made me think that. The scene at the end, I almost took that as an apology of sorts. You'll see when you watch it.

I'm not a fan of Jack/Rose either. It's just kind of boring. It might as well be Jack/Anyone. I'll take a Jack/Nine/Rose OT3, though. But I much prefer Jack/Nine to Jack/Rose.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

"You even look like him?" I forgot about that line. Is there some context I'm forgetting about? How does she look like him?

Well, when she makes the comment, it's after seeing Rose and the Doctor work together, getting ready to catch one of the "ghosts" in action and I think seeing her work like the Doctor maybe just popped that into her head.

That conversation really made me lose some sympathy for Rose.

Oh definitely, here's her mother trying to give her daughter advice in the only way she nows and her daughter's living...what? A delusion?

You're not soul mates :/

I actually kinda hate that term because most of the people who use it, use it in a way where there're saying there's only one for the other(don't get me started, even as much as I love Nine/Rose), which from what I've heard isn't the way RTD intended. Which, I think he purposely used the wrong word.

Damn, now I want to watch Runaway Bride. Maybe I will during lunch.

But I much prefer Jack/Nine to Jack/Rose.

Yeah, there's something about Jack/Nine that clicks for me while Jack/Rose rubbed me the wrong way. I just think it has to do with there was something honest about Nine/Rose, and Jack and Rose started out on a lie and I think she may have felt a little too burned by that, which would explain why Nine gets all the flirty comments in "Boom Town".

[romanticizing.livejournal.com]

Well, when she makes the comment, it's after seeing Rose and the Doctor work together, getting ready to catch one of the "ghosts" in action and I think seeing her work like the Doctor maybe just popped that into her head.

Ohh OK. Haha, I was really wondering about that one. I was thinking, "Rose doesn't look anything like Ten!"

Oh definitely, here's her mother trying to give her daughter advice in the only way she nows and her daughter's living...what? A delusion?

Yeah, although Rose thought she was in love with the Doctor, Jackie understood that part of his personality more--that he was always moving on. Hmm.

You know, I was watching World War Three today, and I'd forgotten that Jackie directly asks Rose not to go. Seems like Jackie is the one who's changed for the better, not Rose..

I actually kinda hate that term because most of the people who use it, use it in a way where there're saying there's only one for the other(don't get me started, even as much as I love Nine/Rose), which from what I've heard isn't the way RTD intended. Which, I think he purposely used the wrong word.

I think he pissed a lot of people off using that word (including me). I don't really know what he meant, then! He does tend to exaggerate things.

Damn, now I want to watch Runaway Bride. Maybe I will during lunch.

So what did you think?

Yeah, there's something about Jack/Nine that clicks for me while Jack/Rose rubbed me the wrong way. I just think it has to do with there was something honest about Nine/Rose, and Jack and Rose started out on a lie and I think she may have felt a little too burned by that, which would explain why Nine gets all the flirty comments in "Boom Town".

Hmm, that's a good point. Yeah, I guess I didn't realize that the Jack/Rose flirting quits after The Empty Child. I love the Jack/Nine flirtation in Boom Town so much, though. They had such great chemistry. I can't really picture Ten/Jack doing the same stuff though. I really have no idea how Jack would react to Ten and it's bothering me!

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten that Jackie directly asks Rose not to go. Seems like Jackie is the one who's changed for the better, not Rose..

Jackie and Mickey.

I don't really know what he meant, then! He does tend to exaggerate things.

I've heard that he meant kindred souls, but I know he intentionally used soul mates, he wants to believe in his stupid little fairy tale and it just makes me not like Ten/Rose even more than when I see it onscreen.

So what did you think?

I liked it a bit more than I thought I would. It pissed me off that the Doctor was just gonna run off like that at the end, I mean sure it hurts, but that was just rude. But Donna had good points, and I hope that's RTD's "subtle" way of saying he knows and that Martha will be like that.

Yeah, I guess I didn't realize that the Jack/Rose flirting quits after The Empty Child.

Yes, I hadn't really thought about it, but it's true. Really confirms, for myself, that after meeting back up with the Doctor, Rose didn't really care about Jack and then the times they spent before Boom Town, they became like siblings which just makes seeing them in sexual relations in fic icky for me.

I can't picure Ten/Jack either, but I know RTD. There'll be tension for hardly one episode and it's all happy again. I'm not optimistic when it comes to this show anymore.

[romanticizing.livejournal.com]

Jackie and Mickey.

Mickey's characterization in S2 is one of the best things about it, to me. He's kinda annoying in S1, but the writers suddenly decided to make him a full character! Yay! Ten should've ditched Rose and just traveled around with Mickey.

I've heard that he meant kindred souls, but I know he intentionally used soul mates, he wants to believe in his stupid little fairy tale and it just makes me not like Ten/Rose even more than when I see it onscreen.

Hmm. Yeah, I don't like that he did that. Especially since it's the first companion he gave the Doctor. Where does Martha go from there?

Haha, I just found a batch of Ten/Rose icons that say things like "Forever" and "Soul Mates" all over them, and I'm so tempted to use one just for my own amusement. But then everyone would think I was serious :x

I liked it a bit more than I thought I would.

Me too! Especially because I kind of hated The Christmas Invasion (and I forget what you thought of it).

It pissed me off that the Doctor was just gonna run off like that at the end, I mean sure it hurts, but that was just rude.

Yeah, he wasn't even going to say goodbye! I guess we can chalk that up to an alien thing, maybe?

But Donna had good points, and I hope that's RTD's "subtle" way of saying he knows and that Martha will be like that.

Yeah! That's exactly how I took it. It made me really optimistic for S3.

Really confirms, for myself, that after meeting back up with the Doctor, Rose didn't really care about Jack

I love how that arc is the introduction of Captain Jack, a character who sex is so integral to, and the most romantic parts involved the Doctor and Rose. And I love how Rose just forgets all about Jack during that scene with the Doctor, after Jack leaves them for his ship. I just have so much love for that arc.

I wouldn't mind seeing Jack and Rose flirt, but I won't seek out fic about them.

I can't picure Ten/Jack either, but I know RTD. There'll be tension for hardly one episode and it's all happy again.

Gah, I just realized, you know how I was complaining about Rusty taking lots of stuff from S1 and putting them in S2 and slightly screwing up moments from S1 retroactively? Well, Jack is just another thing he can mess up like that, isn't he? *throws things*

I'm not optimistic when it comes to this show anymore.

S2 killed my optimism, but TRB and the Torchwood finale brought it back. So I'm sure I'll be completely disappointed. Hurrah!

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Ten should've ditched Rose and just traveled around with Mickey.

Hell, Rose should have ditched Ten and joined up with Mickey and Jake!

Where does Martha go from there?

I have a bit of hope because Rose was specifically written for Nine, and now Ten is getting a companion just for him. If they can make Martha like Donna, just a little less shrill, then I'll love her.

Haha, I just found a batch of Ten/Rose icons that say things like "Forever" and "Soul Mates" all over them

Gag me. How come this problem didn't seem to come up with Nine/Rose? Oh yeah, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T PROMISE EACH OTHER FOREVER. That's what I loved about them, they seemed to be living each adventure up to the fullest and not laughing at every turn with people dying in the other room. And yet, there were no grand declarations. I keep wondering why PotW always hits me harder than DD. Because it's such a giving goodbye. And DD was...not.

Me too! Especially because I kind of hated The Christmas Invasion (and I forget what you thought of it).

I kinda liked it, except Ten got off on a bad foot with me by doing that to Harriet Jones.

I will forever and ever adore how DT played Ten in the Children in Need special, but that's the only time I never had a problem with the characterization.

So I'm sure I'll be completely disappointed. Hurrah!

Let's just me hopeful pessimists.

[romanticizing.livejournal.com]

Hell, Rose should have ditched Ten and joined up with Mickey and Jake!

I lost pretty much all my sympathy for Rose in S2, so I want her to find some other guy in the alt!verse to bother. Meanwhile, in my head, Mickey/Jake is so happening. IT'S SORT OF ALMOST CANON, see:



I have a bit of hope because Rose was specifically written for Nine, and now Ten is getting a companion just for him. If they can make Martha like Donna, just a little less shrill, then I'll love her.

Oh, that's a good point. Do you think the reason Rose changed was to mesh more with Ten, or did the writing just go downhill somehow?

Agreed re: Martha, though. I kind of wanted him to take Donna with him!

That's what I loved about them, they seemed to be living each adventure up to the fullest and not laughing at every turn with people dying in the other room.

Yeah, definitely. That's what Doctor Who should be. Rose lost her grip on reality in S2, thinking she could be with the Doctor forever. I don't know what the Doctor's excuse is. I think I have to blame the writing for that, because there's no satisfying explanation. Actually, maybe it had something to do with Rose helping Nine through Time War guilt, and then Ten was all happy, and got cocky and got carried away with everything and foolishly thought things would be different with Rose. And now, Rose being in the alt!verse has grounded him and all future seasons will rule. Maybe?

I keep wondering why PotW always hits me harder than DD. Because it's such a giving goodbye. And DD was...not.

Yeah, exactly. PotW was true to the characters. It seemed so much like what they would do and that's why it was so wonderful. Whereas Doomsday just seemed to be engineered to squeeze out the greatest number of tears from viewers.

Don't you think that S1 had more of a feel of danger and consequences? Whereas for S2 it's like Ten will wink and say something clever and the problem will be solved. (Oversimplifying things, but still.)


I kinda liked it, except Ten got off on a bad foot with me by doing that to Harriet Jones.

Harriet: something else on my list of stuff Rusty brought from S1 to S2 unsuccessfully. I just watched Aliens of London/World War Three the other day and Harriet was so awesome.

I will forever and ever adore how DT played Ten in the Children in Need special, but that's the only time I never had a problem with the characterization.

I love that, too. Watching it is kind of like torturing myself, though. Ten looks so disappointed when Rose said she wants Nine back that it made me feel almost guilty for thinking the same.

And hopeful pessimists, I'm up for that. I guess a whole chunk of fandom falls into that category.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

Meanwhile, in my head, Mickey/Jake is so happening. IT'S SORT OF ALMOST CANON

If you count deleted scenes as canon, then Rickey/Jake were canon.

Do you think the reason Rose changed was to mesh more with Ten, or did the writing just go downhill somehow?

Well, I've heard that after "School Reunion" happened, it was like Rose decided that she would be the one to stay(with the Doctor) and that was from RTD. I think RTD just thought he could advance their relationship, actually, I really don't know.

What bothers me is that more people buy into Ten/Rose's relationship than Nine/Rose and think it was healthier because Ten was "healed" and "younger". Which, don't get me started on that because they're the first people to say "But Nine and Ten are the same!" And yet they ship Ten/Rose and think Nine/Rose is gross. So, whatever.

I don't think it's crazy that people see each Doctor the same, but obviously people do. And I don't mean to bunch people together, this is just from some of my interaction with people in fandom.

Whatever, I'll just sit in my little Nine-loving corner.

Rose lost her grip on reality in S2, thinking she could be with the Doctor forever. I don't know what the Doctor's excuse is.

He just let her, he tried to dissuade her in SR, but looking at "Army of Ghosts", he obviously got over that.

Don't you think that S1 had more of a feel of danger and consequences?

See, this is what bothered me about S2. You get consequences in S1. S2, you're waiting the whole time to see their consequences, and what is it? Rose gets thrown into another world. WTF? That's a selfish consequence.

Rose didn't give a flying fuck about what was happening in AoG/DD, she just had to be with the Doctor no matter what. How people see that as romantic is impossible to me.

Compare that to PotW. Yes, she wants to get back to the Doctor fiercely, but what's the speech she first gives her mom and Mickey? About being out there and living a better life and making a difference. Excuse my language, but what the fuck happened to that Rose?

Not that I'm bitter or anything.

I just watched Aliens of London/World War Three the other day and Harriet was so awesome.

Yes! I loved her interactions first with Rose, and then with Nine. They were just great.

Ten looks so disappointed when Rose said she wants Nine back that it made me feel almost guilty for thinking the same.

I loved that part because I got the feeling that he would have changed back if he could and he was disappointed and sad that she didn't want to accept the change yet.

That brings me to one of my fave bits in TCI, when Rose is going something like "I thought he and I were..." How can people argue that Rose didn't see Nine in that way? That line gives it all away, she's talking about Nine! And she says a similar line in SR to Ten, so there's proof right there that yes, it was Nine she fell for first.

I babbled, I'm sorry.

[aerynvala.livejournal.com]

I agree with you re: Jackie and Rose. I've never seen Jackie as being a bad mother. And Rose's desperate clinging to the Doctor, making her entire identity be about him was just...sad. It was in her best interest to be shoved off to the altverse. Maybe she'll get her own identity, her self, back.

[meganlynn09.livejournal.com]

And Rose's desperate clinging to the Doctor, making her entire identity be about him was just...sad.

Yes, and the fact that she completely ignored everything her mother just said, which was well brought up, just took away some of my symphathy. I mean, yeah, it's mean to be teared away from something like that, but wow did she really need it.